Something From Nothing

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Son
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Re: Something From Nothing

Post by Son »

chownah wrote:I think there is a gap in the information here about the recently discovered something that came from nothing. Scientists have a a very complicated theory that explains the tiny bits of stuff that make up bigger bits of stuff that make up our world...they actually have more than one theory but the popular and presently most successful one at predicting what will happen when certain conditions exist at that very very small scale is called quantum science. The theory itself is a thicket of mathematical equations which have evolved over time and their evolution is driven by the need to accout for the results of experiments conducted at that very very small scale. Something that surprises non-scientists is that when you have such a complicated set of equations which explains things that you have seen you can take those equations and see consequences of their structure which allows you to predict things that should happen if the equations are indeed correct in modeling the behavior....so....scientists analyse various aspects of these equations looking for something they can predict and then they construct new experiments trying to find what their analysis of the equations has predicted. This is basically the driving force in particle physics today and will almost assuredly be for the forseeable future.

Anyway....some scientists looked at the equations and said that if they are to hold true then there need to be particles spontaneously arising in pairs out of space where no particles were before. I know this seems like gibberish but that is what they predicted. The problem is that these particles recombine so fast and existed in such a small space that there was no known way to detect them.....until recently when an experiment was constructed for the purpose of detecting them. The theoretical idea behind the experiment was that a device was made so that if there were no spontaneous particles present then one thing should happen but if a certain kind of particle was present (and which would not be present unless it spontaneously arose) then something else would happen.......when they tried it the "something else" happened and this is taken as a confirmation of the existence of the particle and the only way that particle could have been there was by spontaneously arising.

So.....since scientists have alway conceived of empty space as being...well...EMPTY...and by empty they meant that there was nothing at all there of any kind....then for a particle to emerge from this nothingness of the present view of empty space this means that something came out of nothing. Now it could be that scientists will re-evaluate their ideas of "empty space" so that it is not empty but that there are things there that have not been detected. After all the concept of "dark matter" and "dark energy" are relatively new and while there is alot of evidence to support their existence neither has been directly detected as existing in any particular region of space so I suppose (my views) it is possible that they pervade all of space but are simply not detected and these spontaneously arising pairs of virtual particles might turn out to be the first evidence of a way to directly interact with dark matter or dark energy....I guess....but I don't know for sure.....I'm just a rice farmer....I have a much better understanding about how to grow rice or cow peas.....
chownah
I just want to say, sir: This is the most coherent and illuminating response to particle physics that I have ever in my entire life heard of.

I have discussed particle physics and related topics with so many people and read so many studies and spent so many whiles drawing diagrams on walls. I don't know how you articulated it so directly and so intuitively, but you have done something special and important, and I would like to recognize that. I'm also saving what you have said here to put in my collections. Thank you.
A seed sleeps in soil.
It's cold and alone, hopeless.
Until it blooms above.
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Re: Something From Nothing

Post by DNS »

chownah wrote: Now it could be that scientists will re-evaluate their ideas of "empty space" so that it is not empty but that there are things there that have not been detected.
:thumbsup: Yes, I agree too. It reminds me of one of my college professors who warned us about the need for using the correct measuring device (when doing a scientific study). If a fisherman catches fish with a large, wide net (with large holes) it will only catch fish that are 8" or larger as the small ones pass through. It would be wrong for the fisherman to conclude that there are "no small fish in that body of water." Another fisherman could come by with a finer net/web and catch several small fish.
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Son
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Re: Something From Nothing

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chownah wrote:I think there is a gap in the information here about the recently discovered something that came from nothing. Scientists have a a very complicated theory that explains the tiny bits of stuff that make up bigger bits of stuff that make up our world...they actually have more than one theory but the popular and presently most successful one at predicting what will happen when certain conditions exist at that very very small scale is called quantum science. The theory itself is a thicket of mathematical equations which have evolved over time and their evolution is driven by the need to accout for the results of experiments conducted at that very very small scale. Something that surprises non-scientists is that when you have such a complicated set of equations which explains things that you have seen you can take those equations and see consequences of their structure which allows you to predict things that should happen if the equations are indeed correct in modeling the behavior....so....scientists analyse various aspects of these equations looking for something they can predict and then they construct new experiments trying to find what their analysis of the equations has predicted. This is basically the driving force in particle physics today and will almost assuredly be for the forseeable future.
This is the part I think that applies essentially to the Buddha's advisement. It's a futile thing really because the fundamental scientific measurements of reality are always going to bring up questions. Quantum mechanics proves, that the closer you get to scientifically observing reality, the less intuitive it becomes, the more absurd it becomes and the more nonsensical. Notwithstanding, a small portion of what people call metaphysics--but that relies on meditation and wisdom--actually makes sense of it. On the other hand, it takes a vast entanglement of mathematical abstraction to explain it as well. That's why mind and form are separate that way.
Anyway....some scientists looked at the equations and said that if they are to hold true then there need to be particles spontaneously arising in pairs out of space where no particles were before. I know this seems like gibberish but that is what they predicted. The problem is that these particles recombine so fast and existed in such a small space that there was no known way to detect them.....until recently when an experiment was constructed for the purpose of detecting them. The theoretical idea behind the experiment was that a device was made so that if there were no spontaneous particles present then one thing should happen but if a certain kind of particle was present (and which would not be present unless it spontaneously arose) then something else would happen.......when they tried it the "something else" happened and this is taken as a confirmation of the existence of the particle and the only way that particle could have been there was by spontaneously arising.
My theory is, it's not a particle per say (in the usual sense) but rather a "connection," that spontaneously arises. And I think this culminates in the contact of form and consciousness. Because even the four great elementary qualities conduct quantum mechanics, from which form builds in the kama sphere. In the rupa sphere there is no matter, but there's form. What I'm saying is, consciousness has contact with the form elements and it generates a "connectivity" presence in the quantum space. This connectivity creates space particles, wind, fire, water and earth particles, and this earth particle I speculate might be the thing which generates mass, thus allowing atoms or alternative building blocks to pop out (of invisible hyperspace). The elemental qualities conduct these particles and allow subatomic particles and atoms to coerce. This is clear when we take the elemental qualities into the context of the behavior of subatomic particles.

I have hence babbled.
So.....since scientists have alway conceived of empty space as being...well...EMPTY...and by empty they meant that there was nothing at all there of any kind....then for a particle to emerge from this nothingness of the present view of empty space this means that something came out of nothing. Now it could be that scientists will re-evaluate their ideas of "empty space" so that it is not empty but that there are things there that have not been detected. After all the concept of "dark matter" and "dark energy" are relatively new and while there is alot of evidence to support their existence neither has been directly detected as existing in any particular region of space so I suppose (my views) it is possible that they pervade all of space but are simply not detected and these spontaneously arising pairs of virtual particles might turn out to be the first evidence of a way to directly interact with dark matter or dark energy....I guess....but I don't know for sure.....I'm just a rice farmer....I have a much better understanding about how to grow rice or cow peas.....
chownah
My thinking is that there is a static energy that fills emptiness[this is very scientific reasoning only], and consciousness causes cohesion of this static to the elemental qualities, in other words, form. Which demonstrates that the mechanics by which consciousness meets form to produce contact, is based on static cohesion to the elements--scientifically legitimizing that the four elements are indeed fundamentally basic, and that these mechanics (ergo quantum mechanics) are based on elements, and also ensue from consciousness. Static energy isn't measurable, it isn't permanent or solid, and herein I have supplanted it to consciousness--a fundamental element, along with space which is the element of derivation.

This is my thinking of quantum mechanics as explained through energy, consciousness, and the elements according to Buddhism. I also think this explains a lot of incoherent concepts that have cropped up in Buddhism throughout Sarvastavadan, Mahayanic and Vajrayanic as well as other traditions descending from Buddha's teaching.
David N. Snyder wrote:
chownah wrote: Now it could be that scientists will re-evaluate their ideas of "empty space" so that it is not empty but that there are things there that have not been detected.
:thumbsup: Yes, I agree too. It reminds me of one of my college professors who warned us about the need for using the correct measuring device (when doing a scientific study). If a fisherman catches fish with a large, wide net (with large holes) it will only catch fish that are 8" or larger as the small ones pass through. It would be wrong for the fisherman to conclude that there are "no small fish in that body of water." Another fisherman could come by with a finer net/web and catch several small fish.
Indeed, furthermore the man with the airtight "net" will actually catch the water itself and hold it within the bag. Therefore space itself is substantial, elemental.

son of Dhamma.
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It's cold and alone, hopeless.
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Re: Something From Nothing

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It is interesting that, if a planet is in the right place, add water, and stand back, and intelligent life evolves. OK, takes a long time to happen, although 'time' is very much a human concept. I wonder if this would happen on any suitably-placed planet, and I suspect it would.

Although, as the Buddha stated, speculating about the beginning of things is not conducive to the path. It is quite possible that in the end, we will discover that the Universe goes through cycles of expansion and contraction in a never-ending process. That is pretty much how the ancient Indian civilization saw it also. The point of the teaching is the cause of dukkha and the ending of it.
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Re: Something From Nothing

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dhamma_newb wrote:I'm taking a Philosophy course at university and I think it's interesting that quantum physics has shown that something can come from nothing.
I really dislike (to use a polite term) when people misuse Quantum Mechanics by taking it away from its context, scope and making elephants out of mosquito.
Quantum mechanics (QM – also known as quantum physics, or quantum theory) is a branch of physics dealing with physical phenomena where the action is on the order of the Planck constant. Quantum mechanics departs from classical mechanics primarily at the quantum realm of atomic and subatomic length scales. QM provides a mathematical description of much of the dual particle-like and wave-like behavior and interactions of energy and matter. Link
Quantum Mechanics explains interactions between sub-atomic phenomenon on a sub-atomic scale. It has virtually nothing, nothing to do with world we live in where classical laws work.

When you say "something can come from nothing", if QM teaches that, it applies ONLY on sub-atomic scale to sub atomic particles (quarks,etc). It does NOT apply to us and to things larger than atoms.

Some time ago I heard one good teacher talking about how 99% of atom is "empty space"... Well, if matter is "99% empty" then why can't you walk through a wall which is supposed to be 99% empty? Why don't you sink down and fall down from the earth if it is really 99% empty. ...
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Re: Something From Nothing

Post by Way~Farer »

Alex123 wrote:It has virtually nothing, nothing to do with world we live in where classical laws work.
Not true, regrettably. A great deal of importance used to be accorded to the idea that the material world was created out of 'fundamental particles'. It was the fact that they were fundamental - supposedly of indivisible and imperishable - which gave materialism its cachet. It has been discovered, as is well known, that they are indeed mainly empty space. So why don't we fall through the floor? I think that is what they are investigating at the LHC, isn't it?

Meanwhile, for an open-minded but academically-informed look at the philosophical implications of QM, check out Quantum Enigma: Where Physics Encounters Consciousness. And note, this is not new-age flim-flam, it is on the curriculum in some US universities.
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Re: Something From Nothing

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sunyavadin wrote:this is not new-age flim-flam
Not true, regrettably.
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Re: Something From Nothing

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLrMVous0Ac" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Something From Nothing

Post by santa100 »

It's true that we are mostly "empty". As an analogy, imagine each atom that makes up our body has the size of a football stadium, the nucleus would have the size of a....single blade of grass at the center of the stadium while all the stuff in between is just empty space. The reason we perceive matter to be hard and solid is because of the electromagnetic force. This force is also the one that stops our body from going thru walls. The best way to see it is to imagine someone holding a piece of string tied to a rock at one end and spins it extremely fast. If a second person tries to insert some object into the spin zone, it will automatically get repelled. This creates the perception of a solid sphere with solid outer crust that prevents outer object from penetrating it, while in fact there's really nothing other than the guy's fist (stands for the nucleus) and the fast spinning rock (stands for the electrons).

About the concept of "something coming out of nothing", it's become less and less mainstream as new discoveries and researches at the bleeding edge of modern physics keep showing up: parallel/multi-verse, string theory, super-symmetry, dark matter and dark energy, etc.. An electron that all of a sudden starts showing up seemingly from no-where could might just be because it's already existed in a parallel universe or a higher dimensional "brane" out there. Once they've really tracked down the God particle(Higgs boson), scientists would be able to go even further back before the moment of the Big Bang to see if the "Bang" really came out of nothing or not. So, with all the exciting new researches, we might find out that there's really nothing that could come out from...nothing...after all..
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Re: Something From Nothing

Post by reflection »

Alex123 wrote:
dhamma_newb wrote:I'm taking a Philosophy course at university and I think it's interesting that quantum physics has shown that something can come from nothing.
I really dislike (to use a polite term) when people misuse Quantum Mechanics by taking it away from its context, scope and making elephants out of mosquito.
Quantum mechanics (QM – also known as quantum physics, or quantum theory) is a branch of physics dealing with physical phenomena where the action is on the order of the Planck constant. Quantum mechanics departs from classical mechanics primarily at the quantum realm of atomic and subatomic length scales. QM provides a mathematical description of much of the dual particle-like and wave-like behavior and interactions of energy and matter. Link
Quantum Mechanics explains interactions between sub-atomic phenomenon on a sub-atomic scale. It has virtually nothing, nothing to do with world we live in where classical laws work.
This is not true. Quantum mechanics theory is also true for large objects. Like ocean liners, or houses, or whatever. It's effect is too smal to be measurable, but the theory applies. And it's been measured to apply for atomic particles, such as helium atoms, so there is no reason to suspect it's not true for everything. See how wikipedia says it 'departs at' small scale, meaning it becomes noticable there. Like interference patterns of light particles. This you can test yourself. But the theory is just as true for any particle. Also for elephants or mosquitos. At least the particle-wave-duality you posted about does. I'm not up to date with the latest developments.

Some time ago I heard one good teacher talking about how 99% of atom is "empty space"... Well, if matter is "99% empty" then why can't you walk through a wall which is supposed to be 99% empty? Why don't you sink down and fall down from the earth if it is really 99% empty. ...
It's the electrostatic forces.


Not really dhamma, this. :namaste:
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Re: Something From Nothing

Post by Son »

reflection wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
dhamma_newb wrote:I'm taking a Philosophy course at university and I think it's interesting that quantum physics has shown that something can come from nothing.
I really dislike (to use a polite term) when people misuse Quantum Mechanics by taking it away from its context, scope and making elephants out of mosquito.
Quantum mechanics (QM – also known as quantum physics, or quantum theory) is a branch of physics dealing with physical phenomena where the action is on the order of the Planck constant. Quantum mechanics departs from classical mechanics primarily at the quantum realm of atomic and subatomic length scales. QM provides a mathematical description of much of the dual particle-like and wave-like behavior and interactions of energy and matter. Link
Quantum Mechanics explains interactions between sub-atomic phenomenon on a sub-atomic scale. It has virtually nothing, nothing to do with world we live in where classical laws work.
This is not true. Quantum mechanics theory is also true for large objects. Like ocean liners, or houses, or whatever. It's effect is too smal to be measurable, but the theory applies. And it's been measured to apply for atomic particles, such as helium atoms, so there is no reason to suspect it's not true for everything. See how wikipedia says it 'departs at' small scale, meaning it becomes noticable there. Like interference patterns of light particles. This you can test yourself. But the theory is just as true for any particle. Also for elephants or mosquitos. At least the particle-wave-duality you posted about does. I'm not up to date with the latest developments.

Some time ago I heard one good teacher talking about how 99% of atom is "empty space"... Well, if matter is "99% empty" then why can't you walk through a wall which is supposed to be 99% empty? Why don't you sink down and fall down from the earth if it is really 99% empty. ...
It's the electrostatic forces.


Not really dhamma, this. :namaste:
:goodpost: :strawman:
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It's cold and alone, hopeless.
Until it blooms above.
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Re: Something From Nothing

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It has a bearing on our understanding of the nature of the world however. Realism is predicated on the solididty and reality of the sense objects. Modern physics has undermined the apparent solidity of the empirical world in this regard. The notion of 'conditioned orig[ination' is actually supported by these discoveries. Why? Because so far not one thing has been found which can be said to exist, in its own right, and not in relationship with other things. There is no 'ultimate object' to be found amongst these entities.
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Re: Something From Nothing

Post by Son »

sunyavadin wrote:It has a bearing on our understanding of the nature of the world however. Realism is predicated on the solididty and reality of the sense objects. Modern physics has undermined the apparent solidity of the empirical world in this regard. The notion of 'conditioned orig[ination' is actually supported by these discoveries. Why? Because so far not one thing has been found which can be said to exist, in its own right, and not in relationship with other things. There is no 'ultimate object' to be found amongst these entities.
:focus: :goodpost:

And you know, I honestly think that the Buddha did in fact know this, that he understood atomic physics. Of course not as we see it through microscopes and computers, but through the power of his own mind and body.
A seed sleeps in soil.
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Re: Something From Nothing

Post by Buckwheat »

Alex123 wrote:Some time ago I heard one good teacher talking about how 99% of atom is "empty space"... Well, if matter is "99% empty" then why can't you walk through a wall which is supposed to be 99% empty? Why don't you sink down and fall down from the earth if it is really 99% empty. ...
Electromagnetism causes the attraction between the positive nucleus and negative electron cloud. Variations in electron clouds causes attraction and repulsion between atoms. Drywall atoms organize into a solid with a negatively charged surface. Forehead atoms organize into a material with a negatively charged surface. Those two surfaces are both negative and therefore repel each other, thus creating the illusion of solidity.

Sorry if my explanation leaves out many, many details, but hopefully this will get the gist across.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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Re: Something From Nothing

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Buckwheat wrote:Sorry if my explanation leaves out many, many details, but hopefully this will get the gist across.
There is also the Pauli exclusion principle for when atoms are much closer. Electrostatic repulsion obeys the inverse square law, but the Pauli exclusion principle provides a stronger force at a much smaller distance.
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