Something From Nothing

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

Re: Something From Nothing

Postby Way~Farer » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:12 pm

Alex123 wrote:It has virtually nothing, nothing to do with world we live in where classical laws work.


Not true, regrettably. A great deal of importance used to be accorded to the idea that the material world was created out of 'fundamental particles'. It was the fact that they were fundamental - supposedly of indivisible and imperishable - which gave materialism its cachet. It has been discovered, as is well known, that they are indeed mainly empty space. So why don't we fall through the floor? I think that is what they are investigating at the LHC, isn't it?

Meanwhile, for an open-minded but academically-informed look at the philosophical implications of QM, check out Quantum Enigma: Where Physics Encounters Consciousness. And note, this is not new-age flim-flam, it is on the curriculum in some US universities.
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Re: Something From Nothing

Postby Mawkish1983 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:41 pm

sunyavadin wrote:this is not new-age flim-flam
Not true, regrettably.
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Re: Something From Nothing

Postby reflection » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:00 pm

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Re: Something From Nothing

Postby santa100 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:08 pm

It's true that we are mostly "empty". As an analogy, imagine each atom that makes up our body has the size of a football stadium, the nucleus would have the size of a....single blade of grass at the center of the stadium while all the stuff in between is just empty space. The reason we perceive matter to be hard and solid is because of the electromagnetic force. This force is also the one that stops our body from going thru walls. The best way to see it is to imagine someone holding a piece of string tied to a rock at one end and spins it extremely fast. If a second person tries to insert some object into the spin zone, it will automatically get repelled. This creates the perception of a solid sphere with solid outer crust that prevents outer object from penetrating it, while in fact there's really nothing other than the guy's fist (stands for the nucleus) and the fast spinning rock (stands for the electrons).

About the concept of "something coming out of nothing", it's become less and less mainstream as new discoveries and researches at the bleeding edge of modern physics keep showing up: parallel/multi-verse, string theory, super-symmetry, dark matter and dark energy, etc.. An electron that all of a sudden starts showing up seemingly from no-where could might just be because it's already existed in a parallel universe or a higher dimensional "brane" out there. Once they've really tracked down the God particle(Higgs boson), scientists would be able to go even further back before the moment of the Big Bang to see if the "Bang" really came out of nothing or not. So, with all the exciting new researches, we might find out that there's really nothing that could come out from...nothing...after all..
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Re: Something From Nothing

Postby reflection » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:09 pm

Alex123 wrote:
dhamma_newb wrote:I'm taking a Philosophy course at university and I think it's interesting that quantum physics has shown that something can come from nothing.


I really dislike (to use a polite term) when people misuse Quantum Mechanics by taking it away from its context, scope and making elephants out of mosquito.

Quantum mechanics (QM – also known as quantum physics, or quantum theory) is a branch of physics dealing with physical phenomena where the action is on the order of the Planck constant. Quantum mechanics departs from classical mechanics primarily at the quantum realm of atomic and subatomic length scales. QM provides a mathematical description of much of the dual particle-like and wave-like behavior and interactions of energy and matter. Link


Quantum Mechanics explains interactions between sub-atomic phenomenon on a sub-atomic scale. It has virtually nothing, nothing to do with world we live in where classical laws work.
This is not true. Quantum mechanics theory is also true for large objects. Like ocean liners, or houses, or whatever. It's effect is too smal to be measurable, but the theory applies. And it's been measured to apply for atomic particles, such as helium atoms, so there is no reason to suspect it's not true for everything. See how wikipedia says it 'departs at' small scale, meaning it becomes noticable there. Like interference patterns of light particles. This you can test yourself. But the theory is just as true for any particle. Also for elephants or mosquitos. At least the particle-wave-duality you posted about does. I'm not up to date with the latest developments.


Some time ago I heard one good teacher talking about how 99% of atom is "empty space"... Well, if matter is "99% empty" then why can't you walk through a wall which is supposed to be 99% empty? Why don't you sink down and fall down from the earth if it is really 99% empty. ...

It's the electrostatic forces.


Not really dhamma, this. :namaste:
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Re: Something From Nothing

Postby Son » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:53 pm

reflection wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
dhamma_newb wrote:I'm taking a Philosophy course at university and I think it's interesting that quantum physics has shown that something can come from nothing.


I really dislike (to use a polite term) when people misuse Quantum Mechanics by taking it away from its context, scope and making elephants out of mosquito.

Quantum mechanics (QM – also known as quantum physics, or quantum theory) is a branch of physics dealing with physical phenomena where the action is on the order of the Planck constant. Quantum mechanics departs from classical mechanics primarily at the quantum realm of atomic and subatomic length scales. QM provides a mathematical description of much of the dual particle-like and wave-like behavior and interactions of energy and matter. Link


Quantum Mechanics explains interactions between sub-atomic phenomenon on a sub-atomic scale. It has virtually nothing, nothing to do with world we live in where classical laws work.
This is not true. Quantum mechanics theory is also true for large objects. Like ocean liners, or houses, or whatever. It's effect is too smal to be measurable, but the theory applies. And it's been measured to apply for atomic particles, such as helium atoms, so there is no reason to suspect it's not true for everything. See how wikipedia says it 'departs at' small scale, meaning it becomes noticable there. Like interference patterns of light particles. This you can test yourself. But the theory is just as true for any particle. Also for elephants or mosquitos. At least the particle-wave-duality you posted about does. I'm not up to date with the latest developments.


Some time ago I heard one good teacher talking about how 99% of atom is "empty space"... Well, if matter is "99% empty" then why can't you walk through a wall which is supposed to be 99% empty? Why don't you sink down and fall down from the earth if it is really 99% empty. ...

It's the electrostatic forces.


Not really dhamma, this. :namaste:


:goodpost: :strawman:
A seed sleeps in soil.
It's cold and alone, hopeless.
Until it blooms above.
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Re: Something From Nothing

Postby Way~Farer » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:35 am

It has a bearing on our understanding of the nature of the world however. Realism is predicated on the solididty and reality of the sense objects. Modern physics has undermined the apparent solidity of the empirical world in this regard. The notion of 'conditioned orig[ination' is actually supported by these discoveries. Why? Because so far not one thing has been found which can be said to exist, in its own right, and not in relationship with other things. There is no 'ultimate object' to be found amongst these entities.
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Re: Something From Nothing

Postby Son » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:32 am

sunyavadin wrote:It has a bearing on our understanding of the nature of the world however. Realism is predicated on the solididty and reality of the sense objects. Modern physics has undermined the apparent solidity of the empirical world in this regard. The notion of 'conditioned orig[ination' is actually supported by these discoveries. Why? Because so far not one thing has been found which can be said to exist, in its own right, and not in relationship with other things. There is no 'ultimate object' to be found amongst these entities.

:focus: :goodpost:

And you know, I honestly think that the Buddha did in fact know this, that he understood atomic physics. Of course not as we see it through microscopes and computers, but through the power of his own mind and body.
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Re: Something From Nothing

Postby Buckwheat » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:43 am

Alex123 wrote:Some time ago I heard one good teacher talking about how 99% of atom is "empty space"... Well, if matter is "99% empty" then why can't you walk through a wall which is supposed to be 99% empty? Why don't you sink down and fall down from the earth if it is really 99% empty. ...


Electromagnetism causes the attraction between the positive nucleus and negative electron cloud. Variations in electron clouds causes attraction and repulsion between atoms. Drywall atoms organize into a solid with a negatively charged surface. Forehead atoms organize into a material with a negatively charged surface. Those two surfaces are both negative and therefore repel each other, thus creating the illusion of solidity.

Sorry if my explanation leaves out many, many details, but hopefully this will get the gist across.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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Re: Something From Nothing

Postby Mawkish1983 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:49 am

Buckwheat wrote:Sorry if my explanation leaves out many, many details, but hopefully this will get the gist across.

There is also the Pauli exclusion principle for when atoms are much closer. Electrostatic repulsion obeys the inverse square law, but the Pauli exclusion principle provides a stronger force at a much smaller distance.
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Re: Something From Nothing

Postby pegembara » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:59 am

The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness.

"Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises ear-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises nose-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises tongue-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises body-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the intellect & mental qualities there arises intellect-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact.

This is the origination of the world.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



.. it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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