Jhana Question

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Micheal Kush
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Jhana Question

Post by Micheal Kush »

To give a little background, I am doing breathing meditation or mindfulness of breathing and currently am trying to reach the jhanas and have been going at it for quite a while(6 months). After reading much about how to enter it, i was hindered by much confusion as regards to method.

My method of doing breathing meditation of consists of focusing on the felt breath at the tip of the nose while being aware of other sensations. And i was told that one should keep attention on the breath till the factors of jhana appears.

Yet i was also told, that to achieve jhana one must follow the tetrads. However i thought it was uneccessary to keep attention on whether the breath is short or long and other stuff like that.

Are both methods acceptable? Or is only one right? And is the tetrads supposed to be a faster way from transitioning from jhana to insight?

With metta, mike
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Ben
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Re: Jhana Question

Post by Ben »

Greetings Mike,
Just maintain awareness of the touch of the breath for as long as possible. If the breath becomes so subtle that the touch sensation of breath is not discernable, maintain continuous awareness of point where the touch sensation is perceived and avert your awareness to any sensation that arises on that spot until the breath sensation is perceived again.
I recommend that you read the section on anapana-sati in the visuddhimagga.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... on2011.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Micheal Kush
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Re: Jhana Question

Post by Micheal Kush »

Thanks for the clarification. But what do you do when a jhana factor arises(bliss), should one maintain focused on the breath with the bliss in the background?

With metta,mike
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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Jhana Question

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

Micheal Kush wrote:Thanks for the clarification. But what do you do when a jhana factor arises(bliss), should one maintain focused on the breath with the bliss in the background?

With metta,mike
Yes, this is an important question. Too often meditators (me included!) feel bliss arising and immediately focus on it, but that will just end up with the bliss retreating. The Jhana factors are like animals emerging from a forest; if you aren't completely still, they won't come out at all, and once they do peek their heads out, jumping up to grab them will only scare them away. Just stay focused on the breath until bliss stabilizes over the whole body. Only when the animal is in arm's reach, so to speak, should you try and grab it.

I know how incredibly difficult that is, but just keep trying to remain balanced as bliss develops. You're on the right track!
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
Micheal Kush
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Re: Jhana Question

Post by Micheal Kush »

Thanks for the beneficial advice. As a matter of fact, i believe i corrected that mistake during my last session. In my last session, i felt a deep aura of relaxation and noticed that my breath became quite subtle but not subtle enough that it felt like i wasnt breath, i was aware that i was breathing. So far, my thoughts have slowly evaporated and i feel with continued persistence, i may access concentration but i feel unsure on how the nimitta would arise. When i fel that deep relaxation, i questioned whether it was the bliss factor building up or just a product of the meditation so i just continued on with the breath.

I just find it hard to believe that i am close to attaining jhana because for one thing, my duration is what you would* call professional(20 minutes is sort of newbish) . But thanks a million for the info, it is truly indespensable!

With Metta, mike

P.S i always try hard to brush away the concept of attaining jhana and just remain absorped in the breathing hope that helps

Edit: Wouldnt is the right word srry
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Ben
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Re: Jhana Question

Post by Ben »

Hi Mike

There is a tendency for a lot of people to think about and anticipate experiences and events while they'r ein meditation.
Best to keep your attention firmly fixed on the breath and be relaxed about whatever else arises.
If you just pay attention to the breath, jhana will look after itself.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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reflection
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Re: Jhana Question

Post by reflection »

Take it easy. Don't search for the fastest way or the 'correct way'. Don't think ' if I do this and this and this, I will attain something'. Don't even think you are close. Obsession on gaining jhana is a surefire way to not experience it.

That's because jhana's are relinquishments, not something to do or gain. In fact, in absorption you can not do or will anything at all. It takes care of itself, totally out of your control.

So let go.

Metta,
Reflection
:anjali:
Micheal Kush
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Re: Jhana Question

Post by Micheal Kush »

reflection wrote:Take it easy. Don't search for the fastest way or the 'correct way'. Don't think ' if I do this and this and this, I will attain something'. Don't even think you are close. Obsession on gaining jhana is a surefire way to not experience it.

That's because jhana's are relinquishments, not something to do or gain. In fact, in absorption you can not do or will anything at all. It takes care of itself, totally out of your control.

So let go.

Metta,
Reflection
:anjali:

Definetely agree with the above statement. I have a tendency to anticipate expierence.
Have to practice letting go.

With metta, mikr
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Aloka
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Re: Jhana Question

Post by Aloka »

Hi Mike,

I'm not sure if the mind will reach jhana if one is intentionally watching breathing.

Buddha said : "There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

I highly recommend that you read Ajahn Brahm's book "Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond " for some preliminary instructions.

with kind wishes

Aloka
Nyana
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Re: Jhana Question

Post by Nyana »

Aloka wrote:Buddha said : "There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind."
This statement refers to the faculty of meditative composure (samādhindriya) of a noble disciple (ariyasāvaka). That is, a person who has already attained the noble paths. As such, this statement most likely refers to supramundane jhāna.

But at any rate, ānāpānassatisamādhi does begin with the breath as object-support (ārammaṇa).
suttametta
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Re: Jhana Question

Post by suttametta »

My practice is a little different than the touch awareness method. I am simply being mindful of the state of my breathing as the sutta says, "I am aware my breath is short," or "I am aware my breath is long." I breathe in, calming the body. I breathe out sensitive to pleasure, etc. By being aware of the breath this way it slows and stops, whereupon I reflect on the nature of senses and the four noble truths. Finally, I perceive the nature of consciousness that is "without surface or feature..." I see this as mindfulness all the way through where the brightness and luminous quality becomes ever purer.
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manas
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Re: Jhana Question

Post by manas »

Hi reflection,
reflection wrote:Take it easy. Don't search for the fastest way or the 'correct way'. Don't think ' if I do this and this and this, I will attain something'. Don't even think you are close. Obsession on gaining jhana is a surefire way to not experience it.
Yes, I agree that if one is still asking the question, "is this jhana?" then the answer is, "no", because asking such a question is itself indicative of a mind not as yet stilled. And so I too am cultivating letting go of such questions, and just striving to cleanse the hindrances from the mind, with the breath in this body as primary object.
reflection wrote:That's because jhana's are relinquishments, not something to do or gain. In fact, in absorption you can not do or will anything at all. It takes care of itself, totally out of your control.
That they are states of relinquishment and of letting go, is backed up by the suttas afaics. But if you could kindly tell me, from where did you get the idea that in jhana we 'can not do or will anything at all. It takes care of itself, totally out of our control'? Because I thought I had read most of the sutta descriptions of jhana, and that idea isn't stated there afaics. I did read once the opinion of a particular practitioner, that in jhana the will is 'frozen' but I have never read such a description in the suttas. Personally, I am interested in an inwardly stilled mind, but not one that is incapable of being directed should the need arise (for example, to direct it towards investigation of phenomena).

with metta :anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Jhana Question

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

manas wrote:That they are states of relinquishment and of letting go, is backed up by the suttas afaics. But if you could kindly tell me, from where did you get the idea that in jhana we 'can not do or will anything at all. It takes care of itself, totally out of our control'? Because I thought I had read most of the sutta descriptions of jhana, and that idea isn't stated there afaics. I did read once the opinion of a particular practitioner, that in jhana the will is 'frozen' but I have never read such a description in the suttas. Personally, I am interested in an inwardly stilled mind, but not one that is incapable of being directed should the need arise (for example, to direct it towards investigation of phenomena).

with metta :anjali:
One is incapable of speaking or hearing in the first Jhana, according to several different discourses. Applied attention still occurs but it is definitely not conscious thought.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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reflection
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Re: Jhana Question

Post by reflection »

manas wrote:Hi reflection,
reflection wrote:Take it easy. Don't search for the fastest way or the 'correct way'. Don't think ' if I do this and this and this, I will attain something'. Don't even think you are close. Obsession on gaining jhana is a surefire way to not experience it.
Yes, I agree that if one is still asking the question, "is this jhana?" then the answer is, "no", because asking such a question is itself indicative of a mind not as yet stilled. And so I too am cultivating letting go of such questions, and just striving to cleanse the hindrances from the mind, with the breath in this body as primary object.
reflection wrote:That's because jhana's are relinquishments, not something to do or gain. In fact, in absorption you can not do or will anything at all. It takes care of itself, totally out of your control.
That they are states of relinquishment and of letting go, is backed up by the suttas afaics. But if you could kindly tell me, from where did you get the idea that in jhana we 'can not do or will anything at all. It takes care of itself, totally out of our control'? Because I thought I had read most of the sutta descriptions of jhana, and that idea isn't stated there afaics. I did read once the opinion of a particular practitioner, that in jhana the will is 'frozen' but I have never read such a description in the suttas.
I agree the suttas aren't very clear on what jhana is exactly. There is a lot of debate about what jhana is for this reason. So if you want the answers, you have to find them inside. If you want to learn more on this, I would also refer to the manual by Ajahn Brahmavamso, which was posted before.
Personally, I am interested in an inwardly stilled mind, but not one that is incapable of being directed should the need arise (for example, to direct it towards investigation of phenomena).

with metta :anjali:
That's because you are attached to having it 'under control'. But if you look at non-self, who's in control anyway? There never was anyone. So try to let go.

Which is also a reminder to myself. Don't want to sound like I am the know-it-all meditation master, because I'm not.

For your contemplation.

Metta back!
:anjali:
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reflection
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Re: Jhana Question

Post by reflection »

Micheal Kush wrote:
reflection wrote:Take it easy. Don't search for the fastest way or the 'correct way'. Don't think ' if I do this and this and this, I will attain something'. Don't even think you are close. Obsession on gaining jhana is a surefire way to not experience it.

That's because jhana's are relinquishments, not something to do or gain. In fact, in absorption you can not do or will anything at all. It takes care of itself, totally out of your control.

So let go.

Metta,
Reflection
:anjali:

Definetely agree with the above statement. I have a tendency to anticipate expierence.
Have to practice letting go.

With metta, mikr
Good luck!
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