Do Buddhist believe in god?

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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:34 pm

Judai wrote:Hey Brother

(MAJJHIMA NIKAYA The noble search Sutta 26)
"I am one who has transended all,a knower of all,Unsullied among all things,renouncing all,By craving's ceasing freed.Having known this all for myself,to whom should I point as teacher? I have no teacher,and one like me Exists nowhere in all the world,With all its gods,Because I have No person for my counterpart.I am the Accomplished One in the world
I am the Teacher Supreme.I alone am the fully Enlightened One,Whose fires are quenched and extinguished.To set in motion the Wheel of the Dhamma In a world that has become blind.I go to beat the drum of the deathless."

Impermanance/dependent origination/suffering are all rooted in ignorance which is 1 of the 3 poisons,impermanace comes from ignorance the Buddha is permanant hence 4th nobles truth unless you think the Buddha slips back into impermanat samsara and can change and get the 3 poisons back?or has he done away with them permanently?

the above qoute covers all knowing/all seeing,all pure,and that no being is higher than a Buddha(supreme being Bhagavan)also states he is the teacher of deathless(imortality)and by the 4th noble truth Permanance,as far as creating the cosmos the cosmos is samsara which is of mara,and not the true reality correct?the true reality is Nirvana,which is the Buddha and of the Buddha.tiltbilt stated that for the Buddha to fit the mono idea of god he had to be the creator of the cosmos,well my reply was that the cosmos is of mara not the Buddha,and the Buddha is the author of the true reality =Nirvana


I didn't ask about supernatural aspects within the canon, thanks

The fourth noble truth is the path leading to the destruction of Dukkha, not the end of Dukkha itself; that would be the third Noble Truth.

When a flame goes out where does it go to? you seem to be infering perminance to something which is not a "thing", it is irrevocable but that does not show it is a perminent thing, only that there is no sliding back therefrom. anicca would be better translated as inconsistent, not-sure, changable. and as for the deathless, it is also called the "un-born" and that which is not born can not die, so is deathless, just like nibbana is the going out (of a flame), there is no more arising.
Mara isn't a creator god, he is only one god of the sensual sphere (of which we abide and only one of the planes of existence), although you have not shown any evidence that the Buddha created Nibbana.
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby greggorious » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:54 pm

Never read that passage before, But Buddha isn't exactly modest is he? lol
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby Kim OHara » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:42 pm

greggorious wrote:Never read that passage before, But Buddha isn't exactly modest is he? lol

Well, he could either be truthful or be modest. Which is the higher virtue?
(I often have to deal with that dilemma myself :tongue: )

:namaste:
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby daverupa » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:56 pm

It's a formulaic phrase, not likely to be what was actually spoken.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby Judai » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:01 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Judai wrote:Hey Brother

(MAJJHIMA NIKAYA The noble search Sutta 26)
"I am one who has transended all,a knower of all,Unsullied among all things,renouncing all,By craving's ceasing freed.Having known this all for myself,to whom should I point as teacher? I have no teacher,and one like me Exists nowhere in all the world,With all its gods,Because I have No person for my counterpart.I am the Accomplished One in the world
I am the Teacher Supreme.I alone am the fully Enlightened One,Whose fires are quenched and extinguished.To set in motion the Wheel of the Dhamma In a world that has become blind.I go to beat the drum of the deathless."

Impermanance/dependent origination/suffering are all rooted in ignorance which is 1 of the 3 poisons,impermanace comes from ignorance the Buddha is permanant hence 4th nobles truth unless you think the Buddha slips back into impermanat samsara and can change and get the 3 poisons back?or has he done away with them permanently?

the above qoute covers all knowing/all seeing,all pure,and that no being is higher than a Buddha(supreme being Bhagavan)also states he is the teacher of deathless(imortality)and by the 4th noble truth Permanance,as far as creating the cosmos the cosmos is samsara which is of mara,and not the true reality correct?the true reality is Nirvana,which is the Buddha and of the Buddha.tiltbilt stated that for the Buddha to fit the mono idea of god he had to be the creator of the cosmos,well my reply was that the cosmos is of mara not the Buddha,and the Buddha is the author of the true reality =Nirvana


I didn't ask about supernatural aspects within the canon, thanks

The fourth noble truth is the path leading to the destruction of Dukkha, not the end of Dukkha itself; that would be the third Noble Truth.

When a flame goes out where does it go to? you seem to be infering perminance to something which is not a "thing", it is irrevocable but that does not show it is a perminent thing, only that there is no sliding back therefrom. anicca would be better translated as inconsistent, not-sure, changable. and as for the deathless, it is also called the "un-born" and that which is not born can not die, so is deathless, just like nibbana is the going out (of a flame), there is no more arising.
Mara isn't a creator god, he is only one god of the sensual sphere (of which we abide and only one of the planes of existence), although you have not shown any evidence that the Buddha created Nibbana.


MY REPLY:no friend the 3rd noble truth isnt the end of suffering,it is the Lord Buddha simply telling you there is an end to suffering and its nirvana,if the 3rd noble truth was the end of suffering their would not need be a reason to tell you the 4th nobel truth for you would already be enlightended with the 3rd truth.

example: 3rd truth their is an end to suffering its nirvana,now just becasue I told you their is an end to suffering,doesnt mean you have ended suffering its just a telling you it exists
the 4th nobel truth IS the end of suffering for now I have shown you the path,and once you have fullfilled the path,there will be and END to suffering.
so as I stated before the 4th nobel truth is the end of suffering,the 3rd nobel truth is letting you know their is an end to suffering but the path to follow hasnt been mentioned yet for you to end suffering(thats in the 4th truth)

the falme going out shows ceaseing to exist,this is talking about the "I"=false self,defilement/suffering and impermenance which is based and rooted in ignorance.
many Buddhists mistake nibbana to be anhilation of an existing being or nhilism,which it is not,as the Buddha would say there is always an continuation of an existing being.whether it be us in samsara being reborn FOREVER or the Buddha living FOREVER,eitehr way anhilationism/nhilism are wrong views.

you did nothin g but agree with me the Buddha is unborn,cannot die and is deathless(immortal)
and as stated the Buddha is PERMANENT,ulsee you think the Buddha hasnt PERMENANTLY done away with the 3 poisons?has the Buddha PERMENANTLY done away with suffering?

the 5 transmigation are samsara sir and samsara IS mara.mara doesnt create samsara he IS you cannot creat what you are,this is emaniationism not creationism.
now the world and everything around you comes from EVOLUTION also known as dependent origination now follow all this evolution(DO) and what is the root of all of it?=IGNORANCE that is this cosmos origination,the universe and the 5 transmigation belongs to mara.now is he the CREATOR?well I dont think he built it with his bare hands but it does come from him,every single bit of samsara is maras.

now did the Buddha create Nirvana NO how can you create what you are?
the Lord Buddha didnt create the true realityt he IS the true reality.

again sir this is based on a COMPARISON between the mono god to the Lord Buddha.

Im simply trying to show you the Buddha is the Atuthor of the true reality(nirvana) just like the mono god is the author of their version of the true reality(heaven/earth).

what makes the abrahamic god be called god?he is the higherst being the supreme being for he has none higher than him.OKAY is the Buddha discribed as thus in the suttas? yes MANY AMNY times over the Buddha will tell you their is no higher being than a Budhda which is why the Buddha is teacher of gods huamns and all living beings the Buddha is higher than the 5 transmigations of Samsara,which is why Ananda called him Bhagavan at the Beginning of every sutta.

does the Lord Buddha fit the other chararitics of the Mono idea of god??yes he is all seeing,all knowing,all loving,The Permanent,(all powerfull is a contradiction of the all loving)

Brother the Buddha does not change he is not impermenant.
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby sunyavadin » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:58 am

"Permanent" and "eternal" don't have the same meaning. "Permanent" is "something which endures through time". "Eternal" is outside of, or beyond, time.
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:44 pm

Hi Judai,
MY REPLY:no friend the 3rd noble truth isnt the end of suffering,it is the Lord Buddha simply telling you there is an end to suffering and its nirvana,if the 3rd noble truth was the end of suffering their would not need be a reason to tell you the 4th nobel truth for you would already be enlightended with the 3rd truth.

example: 3rd truth their is an end to suffering its nirvana,now just becasue I told you their is an end to suffering,doesnt mean you have ended suffering its just a telling you it exists
the 4th nobel truth IS the end of suffering for now I have shown you the path,and once you have fullfilled the path,there will be and END to suffering.
so as I stated before the 4th nobel truth is the end of suffering,the 3rd nobel truth is letting you know their is an end to suffering but the path to follow hasnt been mentioned yet for you to end suffering(thats in the 4th truth)

The four noble truth can be rendered
problem (where we are on a map)
cause of problem (the terain there at current location)
healthy state (destination to know where you are aiming for on a map to plot a course)
way to get to healthy state (route to destination)
it is a medical diagnostic tool, it is not a linear explanation; the path leading to & the destination are not the same thing.
plus have a look at the Dhamma-cakkappavattana Sutta which gives certain duties regarding each truth

translation & emphasis by me wrote:“This is the noble truth of the destruction of stress” -
Mendicants, for me regarding these aspects of nature which were not given attention towards
vision arose, understanding arose,
Discernment arose, knowledge arose, light arose.
Now to what “this noble truth of the destruction of stress” refers should be experienced -
Mendicants, for me regarding these aspects of nature which were not given attention towards
vision arose, understanding arose,
Discernment arose, knowledge arose, light arose.
Now to what “this noble truth of the destruction of stress” refers has been experienced-
Mendicants, for me regarding these aspects of nature which were not given attention towards
vision arose, understanding arose,
Discernment arose, knowledge arose, light arose.


the falme going out shows ceaseing to exist,this is talking about the "I"=false self,defilement/suffering and impermenance which is based and rooted in ignorance.
many Buddhists mistake nibbana to be anhilation of an existing being or nhilism,which it is not,as the Buddha would say there is always an continuation of an existing being.whether it be us in samsara being reborn FOREVER or the Buddha living FOREVER,eitehr way anhilationism/nhilism are wrong views.

you did nothin g but agree with me the Buddha is unborn,cannot die and is deathless(immortal)
and as stated the Buddha is PERMANENT,ulsee you think the Buddha hasnt PERMENANTLY done away with the 3 poisons?has the Buddha PERMENANTLY done away with suffering?

whether the Buddha exists or not after physical death is not answered in the canon, it is a question put aside as it is an irrelevant question, as is trying to posit perminance to the Buddha. I did not agree with you in the slightest, as I am not positing a being to the Buddha for an end, beginning or continuation to happen. no matter what term is used.

the 5 transmigation are samsara sir and samsara IS mara.mara doesnt create samsara he IS you cannot creat what you are,this is emaniationism not creationism.
now the world and everything around you comes from EVOLUTION also known as dependent origination now follow all this evolution(DO) and what is the root of all of it?=IGNORANCE that is this cosmos origination,the universe and the 5 transmigation belongs to mara.now is he the CREATOR?well I dont think he built it with his bare hands but it does come from him,every single bit of samsara is maras.now did the Buddha create Nirvana NO how can you create what you are?
the Lord Buddha didnt create the true realityt he IS the true reality.

you are the one claiming creation/authorship.

again sir this is based on a COMPARISON between the mono god to the Lord Buddha.

Im simply trying to show you the Buddha is the Atuthor of the true reality(nirvana) just like the mono god is the author of their version of the true reality(heaven/earth).
[/quote]
you are not showing anything, you are only inferring things which do not match up.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby Judai » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:25 am

The 3rd truth is not the end of suffering if it was then their would be no need for the 4th truth.
Again just because i tell you nirvana is the end of suffering,doesnt mean you have ended suffering,you simply now know their is an end to suffering,BUT you still dont know exactly how to end suffering.now at the 4th noble truth the path yo end it is taught,once at the completion of this path you will end suffering.the 4th truth is the end of suffering,the 3rd truth is me just telling nirvana exists:)

You stated whether not the Buddha exists after death was not answered in the pali canon and it belongs to the questions the Buddha would not answer and deemed irrelavant.
My reply:this is incorrect sir and is a common misconception.you are refering to the poison arrow teachings,where the Buddha didnt answer the questions but left them undeclared.the Buddha actually lefr theses questions undeclared to CERTAIN people in other suttas to other people he actualyy answers these questions

Example:the world is eternal the world is not eternal he DECLARES the answer in the digha nikaya the agganna sutta.
After death a buddha exists,after death a buddha does not exist,
This is answered in the Alagaddupama sutta 22 under misrepresetation of the Buddha,
The Buddha states that his monks and non followers have wrongly accused the Buddha of teaching that nibbana is the none existance of life,the Buddha states it is wrong to think that yheir isnr a contimuance of an existing being
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby Ben » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:35 am

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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby Judai » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:02 am

Sorry im on my phone it just posts when it wantstoo.the Buddha has always refuted the idea of anhilationism and nhilism,and has stated that their is always the continuation of an living being(existing being).
MN sandaka sutta 1 of the 4 ways to negate the holy life is to hold the view that after death the living being does not exist,to think the Lord Buddha doesnt exist after para nibbana would negate living the holy life,hence the question is answered sir.The Buddha exists after death.

Heres anouther funny one the Buddha actually never said the soul didnt exist
MN culamalunkya sutta the question the Buddha left undeclared was:the soul is the same as the Body,the soul is one thing the body he never said the soul didnt exist,he only declared what was anatta not-self,or not the self,the jiva was left undeclared or was it?look up what a soul was to indian philospopher it is not the self,it is the continuation of an existing being(continuation of life)

Lastly as far as the comparison between Buddha and yhe mono idea of god,i have shown shown dverything when it comes to Buddha being the supreme being,all knowing,all seeing,all loving,all pure,deathless/immortal/and yes Permanantly fixed(suffering is impermanant,happiness and nivana are permenant)

The only thing u hold against me is the creator aspect oh well 5 out of 6 my case is made.
For the comparrison of Buddhas true reality to the mono god idea read previous statements.
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby Ben » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:14 am

Judai wrote:The only thing u hold against me is the creator aspect oh well 5 out of 6 my case is made.

I don't think so.
All you hve done is attempt to redefine the Dhamma to your own fixed view.
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby Judai » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:33 am

Ben wrote:
Judai wrote:The only thing u hold against me is the creator aspect oh well 5 out of 6 my case is made.

I don't think so.
All you hve done is attempt to redefine the Dhamma to your own fixed view.


The evidence has been posted above majjhima nikaya the noble search sutta 26
All you have to do is read the passage qouted above on this page.

Like I said 5 out of 6.
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby Ben » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:16 am

Judai wrote:All you have to do is read the passage qouted above on this page.

I have, and much more besides.

Like I said 5 out of 6.

Just like a broken record.
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:12 pm

Judai wrote:The 3rd truth is not the end of suffering if it was then their would be no need for the 4th truth.
Again just because i tell you nirvana is the end of suffering,doesnt mean you have ended suffering,you simply now know their is an end to suffering,BUT you still dont know exactly how to end suffering.now at the 4th noble truth the path yo end it is taught,once at the completion of this path you will end suffering.the 4th truth is the end of suffering,the 3rd truth is me just telling nirvana exists:)

you don't embarc on a journey without knowing where to go!
you don't get better without knowing what that state is, you plot the course based upon two points where you are and where you are going to be, and the method used to get there needs something to aim for.
do notice the first Noble Truth starts at Dukkha and works its way back to its origin, it starts at the point at which we are, then back tracks to its cause
the same is true of the second two, it starts at where we want to be, then back tracks on how to get there!
You stated whether not the Buddha exists after death was not answered in the pali canon and it belongs to the questions the Buddha would not answer and deemed irrelavant.
My reply:this is incorrect sir and is a common misconception.you are refering to the poison arrow teachings,where the Buddha didnt answer the questions but left them undeclared.the Buddha actually lefr theses questions undeclared to CERTAIN people in other suttas to other people he actualyy answers these questions

Example:the world is eternal the world is not eternal he DECLARES the answer in the digha nikaya the agganna sutta.
After death a buddha exists,after death a buddha does not exist,
This is answered in the Alagaddupama sutta 22 under misrepresetation of the Buddha,
The Buddha states that his monks and non followers have wrongly accused the Buddha of teaching that nibbana is the none existance of life,the Buddha states it is wrong to think that yheir isnr a contimuance of an existing being

yet the question you refer to was referring to was still not answered! and the question I refer to was not answered either!
unless I missed something in those suttas, the former & the latter are about views

if you can quote the answers if I missed it, please do so.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby Durt_Dawg » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:52 pm

Judai, the 5 views dat always obstruct ordinary people are:

1. view that attaches to the body as real.
2. view that attaches to the extremes (such as the universe has a limit, or the universe that doesn't have a limit)
3. wrong views
4. view that attaches to the precepts
5. view that attaches to once's own views

which one of deez views do ya have homes?

Know wat im sayin?

You also claim alot of what "the Buddha said". I take it you must be one of dem ordained Dharma teacher?!!
Lets b fwendssss!!!!
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby Judai » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:02 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Judai wrote:The 3rd truth is not the end of suffering if it was then their would be no need for the 4th truth.
Again just because i tell you nirvana is the end of suffering,doesnt mean you have ended suffering,you simply now know their is an end to suffering,BUT you still dont know exactly how to end suffering.now at the 4th noble truth the path yo end it is taught,once at the completion of this path you will end suffering.the 4th truth is the end of suffering,the 3rd truth is me just telling nirvana exists:)

you don't embarc on a journey without knowing where to go!
you don't get better without knowing what that state is, you plot the course based upon two points where you are and where you are going to be, and the method used to get there needs something to aim for.
do notice the first Noble Truth starts at Dukkha and works its way back to its origin, it starts at the point at which we are, then back tracks to its cause
the same is true of the second two, it starts at where we want to be, then back tracks on how to get there!
You stated whether not the Buddha exists after death was not answered in the pali canon and it belongs to the questions the Buddha would not answer and deemed irrelavant.
My reply:this is incorrect sir and is a common misconception.you are refering to the poison arrow teachings,where the Buddha didnt answer the questions but left them undeclared.the Buddha actually lefr theses questions undeclared to CERTAIN people in other suttas to other people he actualyy answers these questions

Example:the world is eternal the world is not eternal he DECLARES the answer in the digha nikaya the agganna sutta.
After death a buddha exists,after death a buddha does not exist,
This is answered in the Alagaddupama sutta 22 under misrepresetation of the Buddha,
The Buddha states that his monks and non followers have wrongly accused the Buddha of teaching that nibbana is the none existance of life,the Buddha states it is wrong to think that yheir isnr a contimuance of an existing being

yet the question you refer to was referring to was still not answered! and the question I refer to was not answered either!
unless I missed something in those suttas, the former & the latter are about views

if you can quote the answers if I missed it, please do so.


read the suttas provided to you,if you read them then you wouldnt be asking me this question,instead you would know the Buddha did answer the undeclared things to different people,and left them undeclared to those who would cling to those views.
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby Judai » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:06 am

Durt_Dawg wrote:Judai, the 5 views dat always obstruct ordinary people are:

1. view that attaches to the body as real.
2. view that attaches to the extremes (such as the universe has a limit, or the universe that doesn't have a limit)
3. wrong views
4. view that attaches to the precepts
5. view that attaches to once's own views

which one of deez views do ya have homes?

Know wat im sayin?

You also claim alot of what "the Buddha said". I take it you must be one of dem ordained Dharma teacher?!!


I qouted the suttas many times over,and the suttas are what the Buddha said(isnt it?)

how is qouteing the suttas have anything to do with what you posted?

also you do realise that you are on a forum and qouteing your own views dont you?
also i dont know anyone who isnt guilty of the above 5 attachments(unless you are a Buddha)
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:10 am

Judai wrote:read the suttas provided to you,if you read them then you wouldnt be asking me this question,instead you would know the Buddha did answer the undeclared things to different people,and left them undeclared to those who would cling to those views.

Hi Judai,
I did, and have read them before among others.
you have not shown that! the chalange is there to provide evidence of anything I missed in the last two texts you mention, if you can not that is fine.
BTW - I have shown evidence for my claim of the Third Noble Truth.
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Cittasanto
 
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby Judai » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:39 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Judai wrote:read the suttas provided to you,if you read them then you wouldnt be asking me this question,instead you would know the Buddha did answer the undeclared things to different people,and left them undeclared to those who would cling to those views.

Hi Judai,
I did, and have read them before among others.
you have not shown that! the chalange is there to provide evidence of anything I missed in the last two texts you mention, if you can not that is fine.
BTW - I have shown evidence for my claim of the Third Noble Truth.



um the suttas do say that and I have shown that.

you evidence for the 3rd noble truth just shows what i told you it said,the Buddha simply telling you it exists,the path to realise and end suffering isnt given until the 4th.
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Re: Do Buddhist believe in god?

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:29 am

I've given up disbelieving in God. Does that make me a born-again agnostic? :jumping:
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