staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

[johnny]

i'm specifically asking about theravada jhana sitting meditation.

I've tried everything. so forget all the standard stuff: perception of light, qigong, meditating with eyes open (i still fall asleep!), etc. etc.

i eat right, exercise, do qigong, aerobics, i get enough sleep. so again, standard responses suggesting those fixes are out.

i've heard all the standard stuff and tried it all, NOTHING WORKS.

so, any crazy ideas?

for example i was reading hakuins autobiography and he sat across from another monk and they agreed too hit each other with a stick if either fell asleep lol!

he also quotes a story where a monk would stab himself in the leg with a gimlet every time he fell asleep, i'm not interested in lingering injury, that's a bit too far. but i need some ideas beyond the standard, obvious suggestions that everyone always gives (not that they are bad, many are wonderful, they just don't work for me personally).

so?

conversely, what happens if i just keep meditating? normally i set my timer for an hour or hour and a half and i quit if i find that i'm falling asleep over and over with no hope of getting past it. usually if twenty minutes or so goes by and it was mostly dreamy sleepy states i get up and go on about my day. but can you just keep going and get past this? can mindfulness form too the point that you can see this from afar and create a part of your mind too stay alert even in this state (dream yoga comes too mind, but that's a whole other game, ballpark, and universe)? if so, when do i give up? if i spend eight hours sitting while sleeping, that's a whole nights sleep lol! help!!!!!

[fig tree]

Walking meditation.

Fig Tree

[johnny]

Walking meditation.

Fig Tree

good stuff, but not conducive too jhana. i should have made it clear that that's what i'm after, i edited it too make that more clear after your post. thanks though, much appreciated.

[mikenz66]

I agree with figtree. Walking is an excellent way of building up concentration and energy. Then you can sit carrying over that concentration and energy...


Mike

[marc108]

can you describe your meditation technique?

[johnny]

can you describe your meditation technique?

i sit and echo the anapanasati instruction opening lines from the satipatthana sutta: "he trains thus ' i shall breathe in experiencing the whole body..." and then i just sit with my breath. gentle focus, but determined. i let thoughts go and my mind fairly quickly gives over too this task and i enter access concentration. then i let the nimitta take me and enter jhana. this is when it goes well.

when it goes sleepy. it's more like: i sit down and echo the instructions, i focus on my breathing and immediately start having thoughts that are basically the beginnings of dreams, like when you lay down for the night in bed. i can get out of it and back too the breath but a lot of times it keeps happening so much that i spend more time in a hazy dreamy state than in a meditative one. instead of watching my thoughts, i'm totally just part of a dreamy, semi conscious state.

[dharmagoat]

Drowsiness can result from being too warm. Have you tried cooling yourself down, or sitting in a cool place?

My solution has been to sit in the minimum of clothing. Zen practitioners have been known to meditate under waterfalls to stay alert. Maybe taking a cold shower before you sit would work.

[cooran]

Hello johnny,

Have you read this book? Particularly the first three chapters:


The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation by Henepola Gunaratana

• 1. Introduction
o The Doctrinal Context of Jhana
o Etymology of Jhana
o Jhana and Samadhi
• 2. The Preparation for Jhana
o The Moral Foundation for Jhana
o The Good Friend and the Subject of Meditation
o Choosing a Suitable Dwelling
• 3. The First Jhana and its Factors
o The Abandoning of the Hindrances
o The Factors of the First Jhana
o Perfecting the First Jhana
• 4. The Higher Jhanas
o The Higher Fine-material Jhanas
o The Immaterial Jhanas
o The Jhanas and Rebirth
• 5. Jhanas and the Supramundane
o The Way of Wisdom
o The Two Vehicles
o Supramundane Jhana
o The Jhanic Level of the Path and Fruit
• 6. Jhana and the Noble Disciples
o Seven Types of Disciples
o Jhana and the Arahant
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el351.html

with metta
Chris

[marc108]

immediately start having thoughts that are basically the beginnings of dreams

how are you handling those thoughts?

[James the Giant]

i've heard all the standard stuff and tried it all, NOTHING WORKS.
so, any crazy ideas?

I once drank 3 cups of coffee before I sat. It was... interesting. I meditated, but it was NOT conducive to jhana! More like a raging torrent of mental activity and physical restlessness. Good fodder for observing and being with agitation.
Who was it who recommended meditating at the top of a ladder, to prevent sleepiness?
A lot of the monks in Ajahn Mun's biography meditated right at the edge of tall cliffs to keep them sharp. Some still fell asleep, as is told in the book, and fell and died.

But seriously, you can't cultivate jhana if you haven't conquered the hindrance of Sloth and Torpor. It's one of the famous Five Hindrances, as you know.

I don't have any other good suggestions.
Good luck!

[bodom]

If nothing is working and you have exhausted all methods and you are still nodding then just go take a nap. Listen to your body. The more you fight the more tired you will be.

[santa100]

try counting the breaths from 1 to 10, and then back to 1 to 10, 1 to 10,...then let go of the counting once you're fully awake and distracted thougths have settled down..

[johnny]

Hello johnny,

Have you read this book? Particularly the first three chapters:


The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation by Henepola Gunaratana

• 1. Introduction
o The Doctrinal Context of Jhana
o Etymology of Jhana
o Jhana and Samadhi
• 2. The Preparation for Jhana
o The Moral Foundation for Jhana
o The Good Friend and the Subject of Meditation
o Choosing a Suitable Dwelling
• 3. The First Jhana and its Factors
o The Abandoning of the Hindrances
o The Factors of the First Jhana
o Perfecting the First Jhana
• 4. The Higher Jhanas
o The Higher Fine-material Jhanas
o The Immaterial Jhanas
o The Jhanas and Rebirth
• 5. Jhanas and the Supramundane
o The Way of Wisdom
o The Two Vehicles
o Supramundane Jhana
o The Jhanic Level of the Path and Fruit
• 6. Jhana and the Noble Disciples
o Seven Types of Disciples
o Jhana and the Arahant
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el351.html

with metta
Chris

yes. and "mindfulness bliss and beyond" by ajahn brahm, and "focused and fearless" by shaila catherine. i've tried all of their sloth and torpor cures with no results.

[johnny]

try counting the breaths from 1 to 10, and then back to 1 to 10, 1 to 10,...then let go of the counting once you're fully awake and distracted thougths have settled down..

done it. does not help. sorry too be difficult, and i really appreciate the thought, but like i said, i've tried everything.

[johnny]

If nothing is working and you have exhausted all methods and you are still nodding then just go take a nap. Listen to your body. The more you fight the more tired you will be.

lol! that's the one thing from the "nodding" sutta that i have not tried! but even when i have awoken from a good solid nights rest and become totally awake for the day and then i sit, i can still fall asleep, easy. so i don't imagine taking a nap will help. although you may be on too something as there is a wall in sleep where you simply cannot sleep any more! maybe if i hit that wall and then meditate i could even meditate while lying in bed! for me this would be about 12 hours of sleep (i usually get 8 or 8.5).

[johnny]

immediately start having thoughts that are basically the beginnings of dreams

how are you handling those thoughts?

i see them as sloth and torpor, note that, and go back too my breath. the thoughts are so much the stuff of sleep that they immediately disappear when i "wake up". to be clear i'm not totally asleep, just going in that direction and there is a huge difference between that state and wakeful meditation. so much that a couple of times i have snapped out of it and then immediately went into access, and then jhana because my mind took too the stark contrast between sleepiness and the potential for great concentration in wakefulness.

[johnny]

i've heard all the standard stuff and tried it all, NOTHING WORKS.
so, any crazy ideas?

I once drank 3 cups of coffee before I sat. It was... interesting. I meditated, but it was NOT conducive to jhana! More like a raging torrent of mental activity and physical restlessness. Good fodder for observing and being with agitation.
Who was it who recommended meditating at the top of a ladder, to prevent sleepiness?
A lot of the monks in Ajahn Mun's biography meditated right at the edge of tall cliffs to keep them sharp. Some still fell asleep, as is told in the book, and fell and died.

But seriously, you can't cultivate jhana if you haven't conquered the hindrance of Sloth and Torpor. It's one of the famous Five Hindrances, as you know.

I don't have any other good suggestions.
Good luck!

lol! i considered this! no joke! coffee and other caffeine drinks do the same too me. but tea does not, it has theanine which stops that restlessness and agitation. so you get focused and calm alertness, perfect for meditation.

okay so how do i conquer it? clearly it's a fairly persistent problem considering monks are falling off cliffs trying too over come it.

[dharmagoat]

A lot of the monks in Ajahn Mun's biography meditated right at the edge of tall cliffs to keep them sharp. Some still fell asleep, as is told in the book, and fell and died.

Great idea, I can see how this would work. A wise monk would tie a rope around his waist.

[marc108]

this talk by Shaila Catherine has a lot of useful, non-standard information:
http://imsb.org/media/2001-07-05_Shaila ... ssness.mp3

as well as these 2 talks by Joseph Goldstein:
http://dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/?search=sloth

[LonesomeYogurt]

If you find yourself lunging forward, meditate directly in front of a wall.

Otherwise, Bodom is right that sometimes sleep is just the right choice. Give yourself some time to wake up afterwards before trying too. Walking meditation beforehand helps a lot of people. Being outside in a quiet place or in a cold place does wonders too.