chemical meditation enhancement

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.

chemical meditation enhancement

Postby johnny » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:11 am

caffeine. obviously accepted by most.

what else would be okay without crossing a line?

i fall asleep so badly! caffeine actually works for me usually, but i was wondering what else is there?
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: chemical meditation enhancement

Postby johnny » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:31 am

soma of the vedas comes too mind. the rishis were experienced meditators and raved about the usefulness of this chemical. although debate rages about what it was. so much that it could have been a stimulant that would work for buddhist meditation, or a hallucinogen that would be very much a precept violation and totally a hindrance too meditative development in the buddhist tradition (but perfect for meeting gods in vedic tradition!).
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: chemical meditation enhancement

Postby marc108 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:12 am

are you tired and falling asleep during the day or only during meditation?
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Re: chemical meditation enhancement

Postby johnny » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:33 am

marc108 wrote:are you tired and falling asleep during the day or only during meditation?


i have plenty of energy during the day. but if i sit down and get too relaxed i sometimes can doze. but it's in no way abnormal. i don't get drowsy while driving or eating or anything like that. just during inactivity and mental relaxation, so really pretty standard. basically if the mental conditions for sleep are present, i start too drift. i fall asleep almost immediately at night when i lay down in bed and always have.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: chemical meditation enhancement

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:48 am

Meditate standing up or if sitting with your eyes wide open in a brightly lit room.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: chemical meditation enhancement

Postby johnny » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:28 pm

eyes open in a brightly lit room does not work, thanks though. standing up may, i'll give it a shot. can one enter jhana while standing?
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: chemical meditation enhancement

Postby johnny » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:18 pm

also, what about nicotine? i don't use it, but it is a stimulant, no? does it help keep one awake?
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: chemical meditation enhancement

Postby marc108 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:30 pm

nicotene is physically addictive and carcinogenic, so i wouldn't advise that. any legal chemicals you use to fight sloth and torpor will eventually become ineffective as your body adapts to maintain homeostasis. i think chemicals like caffeine are only useful if you are physically fatigued, which is sounds like you are not. i think it would be useful for you to study up on and explore the hindrance in depth and learn how to deal with it.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Re: chemical meditation enhancement

Postby johnny » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:41 pm

marc108 wrote:nicotene is physically addictive and carcinogenic, so i wouldn't advise that. any legal chemicals you use to fight sloth and torpor will eventually become ineffective as your body adapts to maintain homeostasis. i think chemicals like caffeine are only useful if you are physically fatigued, which is sounds like you are not. i think it would be useful for you to study up on and explore the hindrance in depth and learn how to deal with it.



i use caffeine only for meditation and for nothing else. and then only on my days off when i have time to really get a serious session in, so i don't think i will develop a tolerance. three doses of caffeine a week shouldn't be enough for a tolerance, right?

does nicotine alone cause cancer? i think it's mainly because it is usually ingested through smoking and all the chemicals in the leaves, and the smoke damage too the lungs that are the problem. if someone just used those e cigarettes they would be fine probably, or maybe not, i don't know.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: chemical meditation enhancement

Postby marc108 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:32 pm

johnny wrote:
marc108 wrote:nicotene is physically addictive and carcinogenic, so i wouldn't advise that. any legal chemicals you use to fight sloth and torpor will eventually become ineffective as your body adapts to maintain homeostasis. i think chemicals like caffeine are only useful if you are physically fatigued, which is sounds like you are not. i think it would be useful for you to study up on and explore the hindrance in depth and learn how to deal with it.



i use caffeine only for meditation and for nothing else. and then only on my days off when i have time to really get a serious session in, so i don't think i will develop a tolerance. three doses of caffeine a week shouldn't be enough for a tolerance, right?

does nicotine alone cause cancer? i think it's mainly because it is usually ingested through smoking and all the chemicals in the leaves, and the smoke damage too the lungs that are the problem. if someone just used those e cigarettes they would be fine probably, or maybe not, i don't know.


3 doses of caffeine per week shouldnt be enough to cause physiological dependance.

nicotine, itself, is cancer causing through numerous mechanisms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Toxicology
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Re: chemical meditation enhancement

Postby johnny » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:43 pm

marc108 wrote:
johnny wrote:
marc108 wrote:nicotene is physically addictive and carcinogenic, so i wouldn't advise that. any legal chemicals you use to fight sloth and torpor will eventually become ineffective as your body adapts to maintain homeostasis. i think chemicals like caffeine are only useful if you are physically fatigued, which is sounds like you are not. i think it would be useful for you to study up on and explore the hindrance in depth and learn how to deal with it.



i use caffeine only for meditation and for nothing else. and then only on my days off when i have time to really get a serious session in, so i don't think i will develop a tolerance. three doses of caffeine a week shouldn't be enough for a tolerance, right?

does nicotine alone cause cancer? i think it's mainly because it is usually ingested through smoking and all the chemicals in the leaves, and the smoke damage too the lungs that are the problem. if someone just used those e cigarettes they would be fine probably, or maybe not, i don't know.


3 doses of caffeine per week shouldnt be enough to cause physiological dependance.

nicotine, itself, is cancer causing through numerous mechanisms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Toxicology


okay thanks. i'll stay away from it then.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: chemical meditation enhancement

Postby Ben » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:08 pm

Hi Johnny,
You might as well look at your lifestyle. Ensure you are getting enough sleep, eating healthy food and regular exercise. These are 'chemical meditation enhancements' which are routinely overlooked.
I would also look at how acute your sleepiness is during meditation. 'Sloth and torpor' is one of the five mental hindrances that manifests for all meditators. And it will manifest for you despite any lifestyle changes you make. Best to use the strategies as suggested to you above and to read the following work by Nyanaponika Thera.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el026.html
Wishing you all the best,

Ben
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Re: chemical meditation enhancement

Postby Aloka » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:54 pm

johnny wrote:i fall asleep so badly! caffeine actually works for me usually, but i was wondering what else is there?


Hi johnny,

You'll be less likely to fall asleep if you try meditating outdoors with eyes open ( with gaze slightly downwards towards the nose) ...or else do some walking meditation.

I prefer both of these to meditating indoors.

with kind wishes,

Aloka
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Re: chemical meditation enhancement

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:10 am

Greetings,

johnny wrote:what else would be okay without crossing a line?

Guarana, taurine, gingko biloba, ginseng etc.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: chemical meditation enhancement

Postby johnny » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:47 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

johnny wrote:what else would be okay without crossing a line?

Guarana, taurine, gingko biloba, ginseng etc.

Metta,
Retro. :)


thanks! have these worked for you? does ginseng have a lot of bad side effects?
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: chemical meditation enhancement

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:09 pm

Greetings Johnny,
johnny wrote:thanks! have these worked for you? does ginseng have a lot of bad side effects?

From experience, gingko biloba is unqualifiably good. Taurine and guarana are like different forms of caffeine, but not remarkably different. As for ginseng, it's been a while since I've had it, and it predates my interest in meditation.

Either way, they're four things that are "this side of the line" that you could try and see how they work for you.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: chemical meditation enhancement

Postby johnny » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:17 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Johnny,
johnny wrote:thanks! have these worked for you? does ginseng have a lot of bad side effects?

From experience, gingko biloba is unqualifiably good. Taurine and guarana are like different forms of caffeine, but not remarkably different. As for ginseng, it's been a while since I've had it, and it predates my interest in meditation.

Either way, they're four things that are "this side of the line" that you could try and see how they work for you.

Metta,
Retro. :)


i will give gingko a go i think! thank you sir!
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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