Jhana Question

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Jhana Question

Post by danieLion »

Hi Aloka, Mike

The Buddha Didn't Play Gotcha
Thanissaro wrote:Sometimes when you hear the Buddha’s teachings explained, it’s almost as if he’s playing gotcha. He talks about jhana—the ease, the rapture that can come from concentration—but then you’re told that if you try to attain jhana, you’re not going to get there. Or once you get there, you have to be very careful not to get attached to it. It’s dangerous, so you shouldn’t do it too much. Similarly with nibbana: We’re told that nibbana’s the highest ease, the highest happiness, and yet if you want it, you can’t get it. It’s like he’s dangling these things in front of you and taunting you, saying you can’t have them.

That’s not the way he taught at all.

http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writ ... Gotcha.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And:
Jhana Not By the Numbers
Thanissaro wrote:When I first went to study with my teacher, Ajaan Fuang, he handed me a small booklet of meditation instructions and sent me up the hill behind the monastery to meditate. The booklet — written by his teacher, Ajaan Lee — began with a breath meditation technique and concluded with a section showing how the technique was used to induce the first four levels of jhana.

In the following years, I saw Ajaan Fuang hand the same booklet to each of his new students, lay and ordained. Yet despite the booklet's detailed descriptions of jhana, he himself rarely mentioned the word jhana in his conversations, and never indicated to any of his students that they had reached a particular level of jhana in their practice. When a student told him of a recurring meditative experience, he liked to discuss not what it was, but what to do with it: what to focus on, what to drop, what to change, what to maintain the same. Then he'd teach the student how to experiment with it — to make it even more stable and restful — and how to judge the results of the experiments. If his students wanted to measure their progress against the descriptions of jhana in the booklet, that was their business and none of his. He never said this in so many words, but given the way he taught, the implicit message was clear.

As were the implicit reasons for his attitude. He had told me once about his own experiences as a young meditator: "Back in those days you didn't have books explaining everything the way we do now. When I first studied with Ajaan Lee, he told me to bring my mind down. So I focused on getting it down, down, down, but the more I brought it down, the heavily and duller it got. I thought, 'This can't be right.' So I turned around and focused on bringing it up, up, up, until I found a balance and could figure out what he was talking about." This incident was one of many that taught him some important lessons: that you have to test things for yourself, to see where the instructions had to be taken literally and where they had to be taken figuratively; that you had to judge for yourself how well you were doing; and that you had to be ingenious, experimenting and taking risks to find ways to deal with problems as they arose.

So as a teacher, he tried to instill in his students these qualities of self-reliance, ingenuity, and a willingness to take risks and test things for themselves. He did that not only by talking about these qualities, but also by forcing you into situations where you'd have to develop them. Had he always been there to confirm for you that, "Yes, you've reached the third jhana," or, "No, that's only the second jhana," he would have short-circuited the qualities he was trying to instill. He, rather than your own powers of observation, would have been the authority on what was going on in your mind; and you would have been absolved of any responsibility for correctly evaluating what you had experienced. At the same time, he would have been feeding your childish desire to please or impress him, and undermining your ability to deal with the task at hand, which was how to develop your own powers of sensitivity to put an end to suffering and stress. As he once told me, "If I have to explain everything, you'll get used to having things handed to you on a platter. And then what will you do when problems come up in your meditation and you don't have any experience in figuring things out on your own?"

So, studying with him, I had to learn to take risks in the midst of uncertainties. If something interesting came up in the practice, I'd have to stick with it, observing it over time, before reaching any conclusions about it. Even then, I learned, the labels I applied to my experiences couldn't be chiseled in rock. They had to be more like post-it notes: convenient markers for my own reference that I might have to peel off and stick elsewhere as I became more familiar with the territory of my mind. This proved to be a valuable lesson that applied to all areas of my practice.

Still, Ajaan Fuang didn't leave me to reinvent the dharma wheel totally on my own....
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... mbers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Aloka wrote:Hi Mike,

I'm not sure if the mind will reach jhana if one is intentionally watching breathing.
Bull pucky. The Buddha mastered jhana by intentionally watching his breath. The breathe is a perfectly suitable object for jhana and it would never get watched without intention.
Aloka wrote:Buddha said : "There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"There is a case" implies there are other cases (objects of samadhi).
Ajaan Lee wrote:The highest level of concentration — fixed penetration — follows on threshold concentration. If mindfulness and alertness arise while you are in threshold concentration, they turn it into jhana.

Jhana means focusing the mind, making it absorbed in a single object, such as the internal sense of the form of the body. If you want jhana to arise and not deteriorate, you have to practice until you are skilled. Here's how it's done: Think of a single object, such as the breath. Don't think of anything else. Practice focusing on your single object. Now add the other factors: Vitakka — think about the object; and vicara — evaluate it until you arrive at an understanding of it, e.g., seeing the body as unclean or as composed of impersonal properties. The mind then becomes light; the body becomes light; both body and mind feel satisfied and refreshed: This is piti, rapture. The body has no feelings of pain, and the mind experiences no pain: This is sukha, pleasure and ease. This is the first level of rupa jhana, which has five factors appearing in this order; singleness of object (ekaggata), thought, evaluation, rapture, and pleasure.

When you practice, start out by focusing on a single object, such as the breath.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... html#p2-18" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Aloka wrote:I highly recommend that you read Ajahn Brahm's book "Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond " for some preliminary instructions.

Don't do that. Brahm's "method" is confusing at best (for instance, he claims "whole body breathing" refers only to the breath). Try these:
Immersed in the Body
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... l#immersed" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Analyzing the Breath
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... #analyzing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Jhana: Responsible Happiness
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ehappiness" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Four Jhanas
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... fourjhanas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Jhana Not By the Numbers
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... mbers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Go, Do Jhana
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#jhana" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Keeping The Breath In Mind
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Meaning of the Body
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#meaning" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Path of Concentration & Mindfulness
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... cmind.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Body Contemplation
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/bodymind.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Four Jhanas
http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writ ... Jhanas.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
On The Path of The Breath
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... pathbreath" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best wishes,
Daniel
Last edited by danieLion on Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
reflection
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: Jhana Question

Post by reflection »

danieLion wrote:
Aloka wrote:I highly recommend that you read Ajahn Brahm's book "Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond " for some preliminary instructions.

Don't do that. Brahm's "method" is confusing at best (for instance, he claims "whole body breathing" refers only to the breath).
Maybe you find it confusing, but a lot of people don't and they greatly benefit from the general method of Ajahn Brahm. Different people, different techniques, different understanding. Just because it doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it can't work for others.

Metta,
:anjali:
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Jhana Question

Post by danieLion »

reflection wrote:
danieLion wrote:
Aloka wrote:I highly recommend that you read Ajahn Brahm's book "Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond " for some preliminary instructions.

Don't do that. Brahm's "method" is confusing at best (for instance, he claims "whole body breathing" refers only to the breath).
Maybe you find it confusing, but a lot of people don't and they greatly benefit from the general method of Ajahn Brahm. Different people, different techniques, different understanding. Just because it doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it can't work for others.

Metta,
:anjali:
Hi reflection,
I didn't say I find it confusing.

And if it's different for different people, why does Brahm present his method as the right or best way?

And if it's different for different people, why did Brahm go into such detail? You only need general instructions, like the ones in the suttas (or Reverend Lee's)--if it's different for different people.

It likely is different for different people, but is that Brahm's take or your take on Brahm's take?

Regards,
Daniel
User avatar
reflection
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: Jhana Question

Post by reflection »

Those questions you should not ask me. Obviously, I can't speak for Ajahn Brahm, nor do I intend to. But this hasn't got a lot to do with the topic anyway.

So I'd say Micheal, try out and whatever works, do that. Get stuck? Perhaps try a different method. Find more peace slowly but surely. That's the only way to find out what the Buddha taught.

Metta!
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10172
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Jhana Question

Post by Spiny Norman »

reflection wrote: Get stuck? Perhaps try a different method.
I think that's good advice. We are all different, and it may be that a particular method isn't best suited to our temperament.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Micheal Kush
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:47 pm

Re: Jhana Question

Post by Micheal Kush »

Thank you for the links and advice. Ive read many articles posted on access to insight and find them quite reliable.

After much reviewing, im still trying to get the notion of jhana out of my head and just focus on the breath. However i have a few questions. I have heard that if one were to practice to attain jhana, that one should follow a set of guidelines that benefit the practitioner:

Such as

-Avoid social engagement
-Moderete food intake
-Avoid sensual pleasures or anything that makes you distracted
-Seclusion from social activity. Seclusion also from books,teachings or possibly anything.

Ive read the The Path of Purfication by Buddhaghosa and it outlines certian conditions one should go through to advance in practice including being confined solitarily to a forest or empty dwelling.

Now my question is, is all that absolutely neccessary or just highly reccomended?
Also does duration play a factor in advancing in practice or attaining the jhanas?

I meditate from 20-30 a session and told that was quite low to actually see any obvious benefits. I tend to progress forward with both duration and concentration, just needed those questions clarified

With metta, mike
danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Jhana Question

Post by danieLion »

Micheal Kush wrote:Thank you for the links and advice. Ive read many articles posted on access to insight and find them quite reliable.

After much reviewing, im still trying to get the notion of jhana out of my head and just focus on the breath. However i have a few questions. I have heard that if one were to practice to attain jhana, that one should follow a set of guidelines that benefit the practitioner:

Such as

-Avoid social engagement
-Moderete food intake
-Avoid sensual pleasures or anything that makes you distracted
-Seclusion from social activity. Seclusion also from books,teachings or possibly anything.

Ive read the The Path of Purfication by Buddhaghosa and it outlines certian conditions one should go through to advance in practice including being confined solitarily to a forest or empty dwelling.

Now my question is, is all that absolutely neccessary or just highly reccomended?
Also does duration play a factor in advancing in practice or attaining the jhanas?

I meditate from 20-30 a session and told that was quite low to actually see any obvious benefits. I tend to progress forward with both duration and concentration, just needed those questions clarified

With metta, mike
Hi Mike,
I'm pretty sure Nana/Geoff et al have addressed these things in what I think of as the Greater Dhamma Wheel Discourse on Jhana actually titled "The Great Jhana Debate," (or something like that).
My main point stands though: the more you figure out on your own the better (but seek help when necessary).
Best,
Daniel
User avatar
Son
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:58 am

Re: Jhana Question

Post by Son »

Micheal Kush wrote:Thanks for the beneficial advice. As a matter of fact, i believe i corrected that mistake during my last session. In my last session, i felt a deep aura of relaxation and noticed that my breath became quite subtle but not subtle enough that it felt like i wasnt breath, i was aware that i was breathing. So far, my thoughts have slowly evaporated and i feel with continued persistence, i may access concentration but i feel unsure on how the nimitta would arise. When i fel that deep relaxation, i questioned whether it was the bliss factor building up or just a product of the meditation so i just continued on with the breath.

I just find it hard to believe that i am close to attaining jhana because for one thing, my duration is what you would* call professional(20 minutes is sort of newbish) . But thanks a million for the info, it is truly indespensable!

With Metta, mike

P.S i always try hard to brush away the concept of attaining jhana and just remain absorped in the breathing hope that helps

Edit: Wouldnt is the right word srry

You sound like your headed the right direction.
Also his advice is very amazingly helpful. :goodpost: 's
A seed sleeps in soil.
It's cold and alone, hopeless.
Until it blooms above.
User avatar
Son
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:58 am

Re: Jhana Question

Post by Son »

reflection wrote:Those questions you should not ask me. Obviously, I can't speak for Ajahn Brahm, nor do I intend to. But this hasn't got a lot to do with the topic anyway.

So I'd say Micheal, try out and whatever works, do that. Get stuck? Perhaps try a different method. Find more peace slowly but surely. That's the only way to find out what the Buddha taught.

Metta!

I would suggest, for you, more seclusion. I don't just mean from people, but seclusion from things that generally surround you. From objects, familiarities. While focusing on breath, try to exclude the advice and practicals of attaining jhana. And seclude yourself from... well anything that comes into your mind--it is all just disturbances my friend, tickling that keeps the stillness necessary for establishing jhana away. The stillness is what you're trying for. Once stillness arises, the bliss emerges, and once you have utterly surrendered to the stillness (which requires absolute seclusion), you simply ABSORB into the bliss. That's the jhana. You have then "attained" it.

The animals in the forest analogy was PERFECT.
A seed sleeps in soil.
It's cold and alone, hopeless.
Until it blooms above.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Jhana Question

Post by tiltbillings »

Son wrote: Once stillness arises, the bliss emerges, and once you have utterly surrendered to the stillness (which requires absolute seclusion), you simply ABSORB into the bliss. That's the jhana. You have then "attained" it.
Then what?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
LonesomeYogurt
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 pm
Location: America

Re: Jhana Question

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

tiltbillings wrote:Then what?
Mr. Billings raises a good point - except for some incredibly pro-Jhana fringe opinions, almost all would agree that obtaining Jhana is not the end of our path. It's a great tool but it must be balanced with insight. I know a lot of people who have obtained every Jhana there is but far fewer truly noble ones who have put it to good use!
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
pegembara
Posts: 3465
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Jhana Question

Post by pegembara »

Abandoning the 5 hindrances, one enters the jhanas. Having entered the jhana one contemplates the 4NT
Abandoning the Hindrances
"Endowed with this noble aggregate of virtue, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness & alertness, he seeks out a secluded dwelling: a wilderness, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a forest grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore.

"Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will and anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will and anger. Abandoning sloth and drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth and drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth and drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness and anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness and anxiety. Abandoning uncertainty, he dwells having crossed over uncertainty, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of uncertainty.

The Four Jhanas
"Having abandoned these five hindrances — imperfections of awareness that weaken discernment — then, quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. This, too, is how striving is fruitful, how exertion is fruitful.

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' This, too, is how striving is fruitful, how exertion is fruitful.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
Posts: 3465
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Jhana Question

Post by pegembara »

Abandoning the 5 hindrances, one enters the jhanas. Having entered the jhana one contemplates the 4NT. Anapanasati is one way of abandoning the hindrances.
Abandoning the Hindrances
"Endowed with this noble aggregate of virtue, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness & alertness, he seeks out a secluded dwelling: a wilderness, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a forest grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore.

"Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will and anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will and anger. Abandoning sloth and drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth and drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth and drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness and anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness and anxiety. Abandoning uncertainty, he dwells having crossed over uncertainty, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of uncertainty.

The Four Jhanas
"Having abandoned these five hindrances — imperfections of awareness that weaken discernment — then, quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. This, too, is how striving is fruitful, how exertion is fruitful.

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' This, too, is how striving is fruitful, how exertion is fruitful.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by pegembara on Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
User avatar
Son
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:58 am

Re: Jhana Question

Post by Son »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Then what?
Mr. Billings raises a good point - except for some incredibly pro-Jhana fringe opinions, almost all would agree that obtaining Jhana is not the end of our path. It's a great tool but it must be balanced with insight. I know a lot of people who have obtained every Jhana there is but far fewer truly noble ones who have put it to good use!
There are those who attain arhatship (nirvana) in four ways: with insight preceded by tranquility, tranquility preceded by insight, insight and tranquility conceived in unison, or by spontaneously profoundly inspired concentrated practicing of the truth. A jhana may or may not be involved but tranquility usually is, as well as insight.
A seed sleeps in soil.
It's cold and alone, hopeless.
Until it blooms above.
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10172
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Jhana Question

Post by Spiny Norman »

Son wrote:There are those who attain arhatship (nirvana) in four ways: with insight preceded by tranquility, tranquility preceded by insight, insight and tranquility conceived in unison, or by spontaneously profoundly inspired concentrated practicing of the truth. A jhana may or may not be involved but tranquility usually is, as well as insight.
I sometimes wonder whether tranquillity and insight are just 2 sides of the same coin. I also wonder whether jhana is itself transformative - partly in view of the fact that the progression through the jhanas is repeatedly described in the suttas, eg prior to the Buddha's enlightenment.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Post Reply