Buddhism and religion

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by Ceisiwr »

Howdy Ben
Not necessarily. One could interpret your comment to mean that you deny transcendence. If this is your attitude then i can assure you that it is not the case.
I can't speak for the availability of the transcendent experience available via other religions or spiritual practices, but its certainly available to the sincere practitioner within Buddhism. But, to quote Rachel Hunter in an often quoted shampoo commercial It won't happen overnight, but it will happen.
Metta

Why does transcendence have to mean supernatural. For example I can see the images from deep space and look at all those billions of stars and feel transcendent. That doesnt involve supernatural but natural
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ben
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by Ben »

Why does transcendence have to mean supernatural.
I didnt say it did
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ben wrote:
Why does transcendence have to mean supernatural.
I didnt say it did
So if we can experience the transcendent and spirituality while having a solid moral outlook without adhering to the supernatural and/or wish thinking belief why have religion which invloves the transcendent being supernatural (or view that the highest transcendent is) and unsupported belief in that supernatural transcendence?
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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retrofuturist
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Craig,
clw_uk wrote:So if we can experience the transcendent and spirituality while having a solid moral outlook without adhering to the supernatural and/or wish thinking belief why have religion?
Because it helps as a transforming agent. The beliefs themselves don't have any supernatural powers, but because of the way in which holding those beliefs and living in accordance with them impacts mindstates, behaviours and attitudes, compared to the status quo. I can see how living a Buddhist life has impacted my life for the better, in its capacity as a transforming agent... no "supernatural" required.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
But isnt it the point? Following wish thinking doesnt help people face reality and if it is wish thinking then it may or not be true and needs to be weighed against evidence to decide if its logical to accept and act on, if there is no evidence at all and its just a wish then why organize something so massive around it since your probably just deluding yourself and others because of your own wish for reality to be a certain way (not you personally)
You are agruing something entirely other than the basic question of how to define religion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
But isnt it the point? Following wish thinking doesnt help people face reality and if it is wish thinking then it may or not be true and needs to be weighed against evidence to decide if its logical to accept and act on, if there is no evidence at all and its just a wish then why organize something so massive around it since your probably just deluding yourself and others because of your own wish for reality to be a certain way (not you personally)
You are agruing something entirely other than the basic question of how to define religion.

I agree its gettting to off topic

:focus:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:Howdy Ben
Not necessarily. One could interpret your comment to mean that you deny transcendence. If this is your attitude then i can assure you that it is not the case.
I can't speak for the availability of the transcendent experience available via other religions or spiritual practices, but its certainly available to the sincere practitioner within Buddhism. But, to quote Rachel Hunter in an often quoted shampoo commercial It won't happen overnight, but it will happen.
Metta

Why does transcendence have to mean supernatural. For example I can see the images from deep space and look at all those billions of stars and feel transcendent. That doesnt involve supernatural but natural
It does not have to be "supernatural," and any number of religious people will tell you that your feeling of transcendence is very much religious in nature.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by Ceisiwr »

It does not have to be "supernatural," and any number of religious people will tell you that your feeling of transcendence is very much religious in nature.
Once again this comes down to how one defines religion. What i feel looking at those stars i dont call religious but spiritual or transcendent. Feelings of awe and humility in face of the beauty and scope of nature but not removed from nature or "faith" based


Religion i defined in my answer to pinks original questions
An institute of rites and ritual aimed at reaching or pleasing something metaphysical coming from conditioning, wish thinking, false concept of morals or false concept of conditionality and so, for the most part, superstitious in nature. Something that for the most part is removed from this world and focuses on something beyond. I see it as a set of beliefs that have no inherent meaning anymore other than having the ability to comfort ( and inspire art and poetry etc). Something that stands at odds with how we think, an offering of an extraordinary "truth" but offering no evidence in support and so a system of non-thinking
with that in mind i dont define those feelings as religious at all


metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ben
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by Ben »

Hi Craig

I am reminded of a conversation with a chaplain at a christian school I worked at a couple of years ago. He told me, eventually, that his experience of god is a feeling. I was gobsmacked.

I just want to point out that transcendence is not vedana (feeling/sensation). Transcendence manifests when certain cittas arise. Certainly, while we work towards liberation on the path, vedanas co-arise with cittas. However, when we become sotapanna, and again when we experience the phala and magga cittas associated with sakadagami, anagami and arahatta, when Nibbana becomes the object of those cittas, vedanas are not present for the duration of those expereinces.

While we are veering off-topic it was good to explore this aspect of transcendence.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
It does not have to be "supernatural," and any number of religious people will tell you that your feeling of transcendence is very much religious in nature.
Once again this comes down to how one defines religion. What i feel looking at those stars i dont call religious but spiritual or transcendent. I feeling of awe and humility in face of the beauty of nature but not removed from nature or "faith" based
Good heavens! You are having a religious experience, which I have heard others describe much the same thing and call it religious. Religion on a pertsonal level does not need to be limited to the very narrow defintion you quote below.

Religion i defined in my answer to pinks original questions
An institute of rites and ritual aimed at reaching or pleasing something metaphysical coming from conditioning, wish thinking, false concept of morals or false concept of conditionality and so, for the most part, superstitious in nature. Something that for the most part is removed from this world and focuses on something beyond. I see it as a set of beliefs that have no inherent meaning anymore other than having the ability to comfort ( and inspire art and poetry etc). Something that stands at odds with how we think, an offering of an extraordinary "truth" but offering no evidence in support and so a system of non-thinking
with that in mind i dont define those feelings as religious at all


metta
PT's definition seems a bit limited.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by tiltbillings »

The problem with conflating the obvious failures of religious institutions with the human religious impulse itself is that it misses far to much. I think Gabe's comments above are very much to the point. The religious impulse is a far broader experience than participation in religious institutions. Also, what humans want, and strive for in countless ways, is transcendence, the inchoate recognition that our "self" is constantly under attack by the universe (becuase the self really is not what it thinks it is). To protect ourself from the insecurity of its true natue, we need to align ourselves with something bigger, stronger, be it our parents, our family, our clan, our sports team, our country, or a god, and we try put our self aside with alcohol, sex, adrenaline, drugs, distractions. I think in a very real sense, we all are religious.

Given that I do think that institutional religions is not without its virtues, but it is also all too eassily suseptible to corruption and should be criticized strongly for that.

Here is a photo of a religious celebration:
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>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kc2dpt
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by kc2dpt »

tiltbillings wrote:
Peter wrote:From Miriam Webster: "a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance".
What is interesting here is that the religion poo-poo-ers are working with definition of religion that is far too limited. The above gets at religion as it actually is on a personal level without limiting it to institutional structures.
I wonder what happens if I use the above definition on the original questions?

- How does the _idea_ of religion itself make you feel?
The idea that one could ascribe supreme importance to a pursuit or interest strikes me as a positive thing. Greatly motivated people are often the ones who accomplish great things. (To paraphrase Mr. Ollivander, "Terrible, yes sometimes, but great!")

- How familiar are you with the history and origin of the idea of religion (the concept, not the phenomenon)?
Not very.

- Why do you choose to engage with Buddhism as a religion rather than just as a body of valuable wisdom and practices?
For motivational purposes.

- For you personally, what elements of Buddhism need to be viewed through the lens of "religion"?
The non-obvious parts, the non-intuitive parts, and the parts that bug me.

- Is meditation, lovingkindness, generosity, compassion, or death contemplation inherently a religious activity?
No, nothing is inherently ascribed supreme importance.

- Is a religious perspective necessary to understand and practice sila?
I think to develop it fully, yes, one needs to ascribe to sila supreme importance. Otherwise, one is prone to let lesser motivations take the reins.

- Is a religious perspective necessary to understand kamma?
I think for one to practice in accordance with it one needs to ascribe to kamma supreme importance. Otherwise, one is prone to favor short term gains with long term harm over short term discomfort with long term benefit.

- Is the experience of clarity (both incremental and ultimate) a religious experience?
Yes, the experience of clarity is of supreme importance.

- Are the various mind-states (or stages) encountered throughout our meditation practice religious experiences?
I suppose it depends on which mind states we're talking about. Perhaps it also depends on what stage of the path one is at.

- If you hold a belief in rebirth: Is a religious perspective necessary in order to have a positive rebirth experience upon death of the body?
No, positive rebirths can be due to kamma made in the past.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by kc2dpt »

On reflection, it seems to me the OP questions could probably be shortened to:

a] How do you define "religion" or "religious"?
b] How do you feel approaching Buddhism as a religion, or taking a religious approach to Buddhism is helpful? how is it harmful?
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Ben
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by Ben »

Mr Pink
Peter wrote:On reflection, it seems to me the OP questions could probably be shortened to:

a] How do you define "religion" or "religious"?
b] How do you feel approaching Buddhism as a religion, or taking a religious approach to Buddhism is helpful? how is it harmful?
Are you happy with that or do you wsh the topic to carry on in its original form?
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by tiltbillings »

Ben wrote:Mr Pink
Peter wrote:On reflection, it seems to me the OP questions could probably be shortened to:

a] How do you define "religion" or "religious"?
b] How do you feel approaching Buddhism as a religion, or taking a religious approach to Buddhism is helpful? how is it harmful?
Are you happy with that or do you wsh the topic to carry on in its original form?
Metta

Ben
It cuts through the papanca of the OP.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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