Juice drinks allowable after noon?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby Alobha » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:18 am

I looked at the rules for juices according to Thanissaro Bhikku but still have a question:
There does not seem to be agreement whether boiled juice (which, practically every buyable juice drink is, that is prepared for long preservation times afaik) falls under the category of sugar and five tonics or falls under the category of non-staple food. How is this usually handled? I guess that juice drinks at the time of the Buddha may have had more or less fruitflesh in them, so classifying them as food seems logical. How about fleshless, industrial-processed juice drinks? Even if they are 100% juice and no sugar added?
It would seem to me that these would be considered sugar and could be consumed after noon, but fruitjuices taste like well.. fruits. I'd appreciate feedback on how this is usually handled and if possible, why.

Another issue is tea - as far as i see it, it would not count as a leaf juice drink because basically, one doesn't drink the juice of tea leaves but water. I know that monks do drink tea after noon so is tea just handled as water or medicine or under what category would it fall?

The context is that i'd like to keep the rules on food and not eat after noon, so I would like to know whether juice drinks and tea (black/green as well as fruit and herb tea) would be okay.

Thanks for your help!
Alobha
User avatar
Alobha
 
Posts: 424
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:27 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:15 pm

Most fruit juices as you say are not very fleshy (not much pulp) and would not be considered food. In practice I know that most monks and lay people who don't eat after 12 noon are generally okay with drinking fruit juice to keep hunger abated.

Tea is fine too.
User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8112
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:06 pm

do you mean from concentrate?
I would go by the percent of solid fruit mass in the drink, any more than (for argument sake)20% is a no go area, but you have to judge whether or not it is just part of the product and would not be removed via filtration (I have spent allong time filtering OJ fwiw) or if it is extra and needs filtration.

Personally from concentrate juice I am not to bothered about so long as it is smooth, but it never hurts to have a filter to hand just to make sure.
I use one of these http://www.whittard.co.uk/equipment/tea ... eapots.htm and have two one for coffee (in use) and a spare incase I need to strain any other liquids or make a cup of chai.

I don't know how to answer the tea & coffee question though, except that the leaf juice would probably been something like aloe juice (edit - in its production) rather than tea, however if I remember it was classed as a lifetime allowable unless it was used with something which wasn't a lifetime alowable, but any reason I could think of would be pure guess work. although if you get your hands on WPN Korwat you can see a list of what was considdered lifetime 7-day... allowables as a helpful guide.

oh one juice to be careful with is mango juice, and anything which uses puree rather than juice.
Last edited by Cittasanto on Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5751
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby BKh » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:34 pm

It's good to keep in mind that the rules you are talking about are for monks and nuns. It's never spelled out for lay people exactly what not eating at the wrong time involves. It's not unreasonable to take the monastic rules as a guide, though. But you will find a wide variety of what is considered allowable in the afternoon between different monastic communities even within the same tradition. And you will find that it may even change over time at the same monastery. As a lay person it may be difficult enough just to stick to juice of any sort, pulp or not. Some monastic communities only drink clear juice. At the other end of the spectrum, some will drink pureed sweetened avocado.

I believe tea (as in black and green) is not allowed in Vinaya following Burmese monasteries because it is also used as a food ingredient. Strict Sri Lankan and Thai monasteries don't follow this reasoning and will drink tea (without milk) in the afternoon. It is not considered leaf juice. I think leaf juice would be something more like wheatgrass juice.

Some monastic communities will allow carrot juice (they say is similar to lotus root juice which is specifically allowed) but many do not.

Butter is allowed according to the Vinaya and can be used to add non-sugar calories to tea with some success. YMMV.

You may find jaggery a helpful part of your afternoon "menu" if you need calories but don't want liquid.
http://www.readingfaithfully.org Daily Practice with the Suttas
http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings
BKh
 
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 12:43 am

Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby Alobha » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:32 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Most fruit juices as you say are not very fleshy (not much pulp) and would not be considered food. In practice I know that most monks and lay people who don't eat after 12 noon are generally okay with drinking fruit juice to keep hunger abated.

Tea is fine too.


If one drinks fruit juice to deal with hunger, where's the difference between fruit juice and milk? Maybe i'm just a bit too strict about these things but well.

Cittasanto wrote:do you mean from concentrate?

Yeah, concentrate really. That's what most industrial juice drinks consist of anyways don't they?

Cittasanto wrote:oh one juice to be careful with is mango juice, and anything which uses puree rather than juice.

Very good tip, thanks for that. I didn't even consider puree being a factor ;)
I just got the WPN Korwat Manual. Didn't even know something like this existed, thanks a lot! :smile:

BKh wrote:It's good to keep in mind that the rules you are talking about are for monks and nuns. It's never spelled out for lay people exactly what not eating at the wrong time involves. It's not unreasonable to take the monastic rules as a guide, though. But you will find a wide variety of what is considered allowable in the afternoon between different monastic communities even within the same tradition. And you will find that it may even change over time at the same monastery. As a lay person it may be difficult enough just to stick to juice of any sort, pulp or not. Some monastic communities only drink clear juice. At the other end of the spectrum, some will drink pureed sweetened avocado.

Yeah, i'm a bit baffled. There are much more differences than i thought there would be. I just want to have some good guideline to accompany my eating behavior and reduce irritation from food-related thoughts.I guess i'll just not take any juice and go with tea or water. Seems easier for me. ;)
User avatar
Alobha
 
Posts: 424
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:27 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:34 am

BKh wrote:I But you will find a wide variety of what is considered allowable in the afternoon between different monastic communities even within the same tradition.

Yes, it's interesting what some have come up with. Some Ajahn Chah communities are fine with dark chocolate and gummy bears http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gummy_bears in the evening, for example...

Personally, I follow whatever happens to be the local convention. Since interpretation differ so widely I see little point in attaching any significance in the details. The key point is that you have decided to take on a certain level of renunciation.

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10383
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby BKh » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:23 am

Alobha wrote:If one drinks fruit juice to deal with hunger, where's the difference between fruit juice and milk? Maybe i'm just a bit too strict about these things but well.

I don't think milk was a common drink for adults back then. And theoretically you could live off milk completely whereas juice not so much. Milk is much more substantial and provides nourishment beyond just dispelling hunger. I think.

Alobha wrote:Yeah, i'm a bit baffled. There are much more differences than i thought there would be. I just want to have some good guideline to accompany my eating behavior and reduce irritation from food-related thoughts.I guess i'll just not take any juice and go with tea or water. Seems easier for me. ;)


Well, I don't think anyone has recommended "no juice" as a guideline. I believe the Buddha gave these allowances for a reason, namely to make the practice possible over the long term and in a variety of situations. If you can get by with nothing but tea and water then great. But there will probably be times when that isn't enough. In that case just drink juice. For a lay person in daily life, I'd say any juice that doesn't require a spoon and you'll be fine. :jumping:

There is a pitfall in Vinaya traditions where people idolize the most strict interpretation they can imagine. Then it turns out to be impossible to follow and they give up. I don't mean to say that is what you are doing. But I would encourage you to figure out something that works well for you even if it is is not as legally pure as you would like. This is a luxury that lay people have, monastics not so much.
http://www.readingfaithfully.org Daily Practice with the Suttas
http://www.audtip.org Audio Sutta Recordings
BKh
 
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 12:43 am

Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:02 am

Alobha wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:do you mean from concentrate?

Yeah, concentrate really. That's what most industrial juice drinks consist of anyways don't they?

Cittasanto wrote:oh one juice to be careful with is mango juice, and anything which uses puree rather than juice.

Very good tip, thanks for that. I didn't even consider puree being a factor ;)
I just got the WPN Korwat Manual. Didn't even know something like this existed, thanks a lot! :smile:

Particularly the long life drinks, but it is not always a sign of allowability, as some of the OJ with juicy bits are made from concentrate yet need strained. the Puree I think is a non-issue mango juice (for example) would have puree in after straining so if part of a coctail juice drink I am (as a lay person outside of a monastery) not to concerned with it being there, but on its own I wouldn't touch it!

if there is a speciality shop near you that sells tea & coffee keep an eye out for that strainer, it is very useful for drinks, making propper coffee or loose tea (some tea pots come with it, or similar attached, and cleans really easily.

The Korwat is out of date now, but it is still a reasonable guide for things done in some of the monasteries, and at least gives a quick source of how things can be done at a certain standard with one particular interpretation.
but just a little advise, try to use cream cheese rather than the harder verieties as it is easier on the stomach (I have found)
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5751
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby James the Giant » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:41 am

Plus the juice can't be made from anything bigger than your fist, right? So pineapple juice or watermelon juice would not be allowed.

But...
In my opinion it's better to go by the spirit of the rule rather than get too much caught up in interpretations and loopholes. Research why the Buddha made this rule, and follow the spirit of it.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
User avatar
James the Giant
 
Posts: 784
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:41 am

Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby Alobha » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:32 am

BKh wrote:There is a pitfall in Vinaya traditions where people idolize the most strict interpretation they can imagine. Then it turns out to be impossible to follow and they give up. I don't mean to say that is what you are doing. But I would encourage you to figure out something that works well for you even if it is is not as legally pure as you would like. This is a luxury that lay people have, monastics not so much.


I just don't want to trick myself but i know what you mean of course. Last time i did the one-time-eater practice, not drinking juice was not a problem but denying food when everybody else was eating was. I will see how it works out, maybe i'll come to the conclusion that it's a bit too strict and not doable at all. I can still juice up my practice then :D
User avatar
Alobha
 
Posts: 424
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:27 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:54 pm

Alobha wrote:
BKh wrote:There is a pitfall in Vinaya traditions where people idolize the most strict interpretation they can imagine. Then it turns out to be impossible to follow and they give up. I don't mean to say that is what you are doing. But I would encourage you to figure out something that works well for you even if it is is not as legally pure as you would like. This is a luxury that lay people have, monastics not so much.


I just don't want to trick myself but i know what you mean of course. Last time i did the one-time-eater practice, not drinking juice was not a problem but denying food when everybody else was eating was. I will see how it works out, maybe i'll come to the conclusion that it's a bit too strict and not doable at all. I can still juice up my practice then :D


Good point by Bhikkhu BKh and good plan you have for the one meal with juice later. Ven. Dhammika discussed some of the extremism in Broken Buddha. It appeared that those who were most fanatical on some issues actually were the most likely to disrobe and leave the training.

In a somewhat similar analogous way, I have seen some who were exuberant about becoming a vegetarian. They dive right into veganism and then shortly thereafter go to raw food vegan diet. Then about two weeks later they are eating a steak. It is better to take it easy, not pushing too hard, especially as a lay person where there is not even any requirement regarding one meal or all meals before 12 noon. Personally I try to eat everything before 12 noon, but will drink juice in the evenings and even eat some whole fruit sometimes in the evenings and then also occasionally eat some solid food to make an exception as necessary in social situations.
User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8112
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby creekist » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:55 pm

I have heard that uddhacca-kukkuca is a hindrance.

My point: What do you think?

Follow your conscience, if you think it's reasonable to drink juice after noon, then do so. If you truly don't think it's reasonable, then don't.

Don't be too scrupulous. Relax.
creekist
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:24 pm

Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby yamaka » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:07 pm

For Ajahn Chah tradition which I am following here, all the soft drinks,fruit juices(without pulps,and it's shouldn't bigger than a human fist), coffee without milk, 3 in 1 drinks, teas are legible to consume,if u are practising the 8 precepts.
User avatar
yamaka
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:44 am
Location: Malaysia

Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby Alobha » Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:44 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:In a somewhat similar analogous way, I have seen some who were exuberant about becoming a vegetarian. They dive right into veganism and then shortly thereafter go to raw food vegan diet. Then about two weeks later they are eating a steak. It is better to take it easy, not pushing too hard, especially as a lay person where there is not even any requirement regarding one meal or all meals before 12 noon. Personally I try to eat everything before 12 noon, but will drink juice in the evenings and even eat some whole fruit sometimes in the evenings and then also occasionally eat some solid food to make an exception as necessary in social situations.


Certainly. It's going a bit offtopic but i already drank a cup of soft drink because a friend offered me one and it was quite hot yesterday. Ate some water-ice today and that is just fine for keeping away bodily discomfort, not for fattening or indulging the senses. I do get why there are allowable things for after noon and it makes a bit more sense now. It just helps with keeping the body calm along the day.
User avatar
Alobha
 
Posts: 424
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:27 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby gavesako » Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:49 pm

For Ajahn Chah tradition monasteries in England, all juices (forget the thing about the size of a first -- it is an old muddle) are allowable in the afternoon, and so is soy milk usually mixed with tea.

:coffee:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

ajahnchah.org - Teachings of Ajahn Chah in many languages
Dhammatube - Videos on Buddhist practice
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
User avatar
gavesako
 
Posts: 1400
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm
Location: England

Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby khemacitto » Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:26 am

gavesako wrote:For Ajahn Chah tradition monasteries in England, all juices (forget the thing about the size of a first -- it is an old muddle) are allowable in the afternoon, and so is soy milk usually mixed with tea.

:coffee:


Could you explain the reasoning behind the inclusion of soy milk? What interpretation of the Vinaya supports this?

PS, I don't mean this in an accusatory way, but just because I'd like to understand. I looked up the Vinaya passages this afternoon and couldn't find any clear "soy milk" loop holes. Clarification would be greatly appreciated.

:anjali:
khemacitto
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:33 am

Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby kmath » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:20 am

I'm surprised no one has said this yet but some Ajahn Chah monasteries allow cheese in the afternoon as well. I can't remember the reasoning behind that. Seems like food to me...

The soy milk allowance I believe has something to do with bean broth being allowable as a medicine -- I think!

I don't the Vinaya on this very well but am just speaking from my experience at ONE Ajahn Chah monastery. The monks there would use the following as rule of thumb regarding juice: if you can see through it, you can drink it. Although carrot juice was passed around often, so the rule seemed to go to hell in that case. Or the monks would do the fork test: if you can dip a fork it in, pull the fork out and if the fork did not contain any remnants of the juice, it's allowable.

But the cheese allowance was the most surprising. Cheese, dark chocolate that did not contain milk, and sugar candies -- all good. I don't think soda was allowable but I can't really see why not if all the rest of this is.

:shrug:

It should also be noted that different monks, even within the same tradition or at same monastery, can have widely different views regarding allowables and so some monks will abstain while other partake.

:popcorn:
User avatar
kmath
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:44 pm

Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby lyndon taylor » Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:14 am

Some Therevada traditions permit Ice Cream because at room temperature its a liquid. And I think the production and consumption of milk would have been pretty important in the time of the Buddha otherwise where would all the stuff about not killing cows and cows being Holy come from. IMHO Cows were considered Sacred because of just how important milk and cheese were to their diet in India.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
User avatar
lyndon taylor
 
Posts: 866
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, Southern California, USA

Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:21 am

The five "tonics" allowed for a sick bhikkhu:

ghee, fresh butter, oil, honey, sugar/molasses

In Mv.VI.34.21, the Buddha allows bhikkhus to consume five products of the cow: milk, curds, buttermilk, fresh butter, and ghee. Apparently, cheese — curds heated to evaporate their liquid content and then cured with or without mold — was unknown in those days, but there seems every reason, using the Great Standards, to include it under one of the five. The question is which one. Some have argued that it should come under fresh butter, but the argument for classifying it under curds seems stronger, as it is closer to curds in composition and is generally regarded as more of a substantial food. Different Communities, however, have differing opinions on this matter.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .html#NP23


If cheese is allowed, then certainly soy milk would be considered okay as it is less calories and non-dairy. And Bhikkhu Gavesako was referring to putting soy milk in tea, which I imagine would just be something like a teaspoon or two.

"Sick bhikkhu" can be somewhat subjective from what I understand and can include simply being "hungry" (in some interpretations of the Vinaya).
User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8112
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Re: Juice drinks allowable after noon?

Postby lyndon taylor » Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:17 am

David N. Snyder wrote:The five "tonics" allowed for a sick bhikkhu:

ghee, fresh butter, oil, honey, sugar/molasses

In Mv.VI.34.21, the Buddha allows bhikkhus to consume five products of the cow: milk, curds, buttermilk, fresh butter, and ghee. Apparently, cheese — curds heated to evaporate their liquid content and then cured with or without mold — was unknown in those days, but there seems every reason, using the Great Standards, to include it under one of the five. The question is which one. Some have argued that it should come under fresh butter, but the argument for classifying it under curds seems stronger, as it is closer to curds in composition and is generally regarded as more of a substantial food. Different Communities, however, have differing opinions on this matter.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .html#NP23


Its quite possible the Pali?? word translated as curds in that passage also includes cheese in its meaning, I find it very hard to believe that pre BC India was so primitive they hadn't developed the ability to manufacture cheese, add to that the big problem with dairy products being spoilage(with no refrigeration) it seems cheese of all products from the cow would last the longest before spoiling, hence making it very attractive to them.

On the other hand, no one at my temple suggested that cheese was somehow permitted after 12PM, being a solid food, where as I said, milk and ice cream where permitted, some of this makes less logical sense and is more arbitrary, for instance I'm surprised at how relatively liberal the Ajahn Chan traditions are quoted as being on what's permitted after 12PM, I was under the impression that the forest monk traditions were a return to more conservative interpretations, maybe not???
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
User avatar
lyndon taylor
 
Posts: 866
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, Southern California, USA

Next

Return to General Theravāda discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], chownah, Sylvester and 7 guests