Buddhism and religion

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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pink_trike
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by pink_trike »

tiltbillings wrote:
You'll note that I try to avoid telling others what religion actually is - and repeatedly suggest that we ought to find out what it is through rigorous scrutiny, preferably before we indulge in it.
Except you are willing to classify as something bad. This is simply odd, if not down right weird.
Never used the word "bad", nor did I imply it.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Jechbi
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by Jechbi »

pink_trike wrote:You'll note that I try to avoid telling others what religion actually is - and repeatedly suggest that we ought to find out what it is through rigorous scrutiny, preferably before we indulge in it.
Sorry, my misunderstanding.

In my opinion, religion actually is a social construct, but I see there's been some discussion here about the human "religious impulse" that each person individually experiences, perhaps independenty of any institution. That's a different matter, in my opinion.

In my opinion, that impulse is the instinctual recognition that there's something more than just this limited "self" that we seem to be. Everybody at some point in their life probably has that existential angst. That, coupled with glimpses of something that might seem to lie "beyond," fuel personal religious pursuits, in my opinion.

Organized religions provide a framework for exploring that impulse.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote: But why would we want to take their word for it?
Probably for no more reason than we should take your word for that your bowing to a Buddha astatue and a globe are not part of the religious impulse and more than your sitting in meditation in hopes ending pain has not a thing to do with it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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pink_trike
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by pink_trike »

Jechbi wrote:
pink_trike wrote:
Organized religions provide a framework for exploring that impulse.
And has a remarkable talent for exploiting that impulse. :tongue:
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by tiltbillings »

Jechbi wrote:
pink_trike wrote:You'll note that I try to avoid telling others what religion actually is - and repeatedly suggest that we ought to find out what it is through rigorous scrutiny, preferably before we indulge in it.
Sorry, my misunderstanding.

In my opinion, religion actually is a social construct, but I see there's been some discussion here about the human "religious impulse" that each person individually experiences, perhaps independenty of any institution. That's a different matter, in my opinion.

In my opinion, that impulse is the instinctual recognition that there's something more than just this limited "self" that we seem to be. Everybody at some point in their life probably has that existential angst. That, coupled with glimpses of something that might seem to lie "beyond," fuel personal religious pursuits, in my opinion.

Organized religions provide a framework for exploring that impulse.
And channelling it, and, of course, it all that can go horribly wrong, but it can also go quite right. None of this is black and white.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Pink,
pink_trike wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
You'll note that I try to avoid telling others what religion actually is - and repeatedly suggest that we ought to find out what it is through rigorous scrutiny, preferably before we indulge in it.
Except you are willing to classify as something bad. This is simply odd, if not down right weird.
Never used the word "bad", nor did I imply it.
Didn't you just write "Let religion die away" a few posts ago?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
You'll note that I try to avoid telling others what religion actually is - and repeatedly suggest that we ought to find out what it is through rigorous scrutiny, preferably before we indulge in it.
Except you are willing to classify as something bad. This is simply odd, if not down right weird.
Never used the word "bad", nor did I imply it.
No, you just talked about body counts, exploitation, ansd needing to get rid of it. Who, then, needs to use the word bad?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Jechbi
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by Jechbi »

tiltbillings wrote: And channelling it, and, of course, it all that can go horribly wrong, but it can also go quite right. None of this is black and white.
True.
pink_trike wrote:
Jechbi wrote:Organized religions provide a framework for exploring that impulse.
And has a remarkable talent for exploiting that impulse. :tongue:
In some cases, true. Not in all cases. Some forms of Buddhism, for example, are an exception. (And that's not the only exception.)

edit: to fix quote box
Last edited by Jechbi on Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by tiltbillings »

PT: Letting go of this [religious] impulse may be exactly what the good doctor, Siddhārtha Gautama, recommended.
Sure, but not until the other shore is reached. There is a reason the Buddha gave dukkha as the First Noble Truth; it is the engine that drives the religious impulse.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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pink_trike
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by pink_trike »

retrofuturist wrote:
Didn't you just write "Let religion die away" a few posts ago?
Yes, but why assume that means "bad". There are many other reasons to let it die away...antiquated, inadequate, hinderance, delusion, lacking in benefit, superfluous - none of these mean "bad".
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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pink_trike
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by pink_trike »

tiltbillings wrote:
PT: Letting go of this [religious] impulse may be exactly what the good doctor, Siddhārtha Gautama, recommended.
Sure, but not until the other shore is reached.

There is a reason the Buddha gave dukkha as the First Noble Truth; it is the engine that drives the religious impulse.
Imo, you're conflating the teachings of Siddhārtha Gautama with this religious impulse of which we know very little about.

Dukkha only drives the religious impulse for people who choose to indulge in the religious impulse. Why not set aside the impulse and get on with the work?
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Jechbi
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by Jechbi »

pink_trike wrote:Yes, but why assume that means "bad". There are many other reasons to let it die away...antiquated, inadequate, hinderance, delusion, lacking in benefit, superfluous - none of these mean "bad".
You're splitting hairs.

I still don't understand why you are applying this interpretation to all religions, bar none.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Jechbi
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by Jechbi »

pink_trike wrote:Why not set aside the impulse and get on with the work?
Great, if that works for you. For other people, other approaches might be more productive at this particular stage. Why force everyone into the same pigeonhole?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
PT: Letting go of this [religious] impulse may be exactly what the good doctor, Siddhārtha Gautama, recommended.
Sure, but not until the other shore is reached.

There is a reason the Buddha gave dukkha as the First Noble Truth; it is the engine that drives the religious impulse.
Imo, you're conflating the teachings of Siddhārtha Gautama with this religious impulse of which we know very little about.
He said, swatting back a perceived fast ball.
Dukkha only drives the religious impulse for people who choose to indulge in the religious impulse. Why not set aside the impulse and get on with the work?
Now for only knowing very little about the religious impulse, you seem to be making some assumptions about what it actually is.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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pink_trike
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Re: Buddhism and religion

Post by pink_trike »

Jechbi wrote:
pink_trike wrote:Why not set aside the impulse and get on with the work?
Great, if that works for you. For other people, other approaches might be more productive at this particular stage. Why force everyone into the same pigeonhole?
Please point to where I advocated "force". This is getting a bit silly. :smile:
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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