"The Deathless" (amata)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Unable to engage the question, it would seem.
I have engaged your question. I set it aside as a philosophical abstraction, not worth entangling oneself with. You seem to think that all kinds of conclusions are hanging upon it. I have provided Ven. Nagasena's answer to a similar conundrum, and I think that is sufficient.
You can try to dodge it by calling the question a "philosophical abstraction," but the fact is that you are simply dodging the question.
In that case does the man who realises nibbàna realise
something already produced, or does he himself
produce it first and then realise it?”
“Neither of these, O king, yet nibbàna does exist.”
If your question is "grounded in the suttas" as you claim, then simply show where in the suttas it is "grounded," as I have repeatedly asked.
I'll be happy to when you answer my question: If "nibbana does exist" and there is at this time no ariyas, there is still a nibbana existing out there somewhere in some way? Where? What is its property? And what does it mean "nibbana does exist?" Either "nibbana does exist" actually means something, which then means it can be explained ( or at least meaningfully discussed), or it is a "philosophical abstraction" and is right up there with "God does exist." Now, you are the one who put out here "nibbana does exist," and this goes directly to the core of my point. So, let us hear what you think "nibbana does exist" means. And I'll be happy to answer your questions, but question answering deficit goes in your direction. Time for you to make up some lost ground here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by Nyana »

kirk5a wrote:When you refer to "conceptual proliferation" which words of mine are you referring to?
Words aren't much of a problem. Clinging to views is a problem.
kirk5a wrote:So "the death-free" is fine, but "the deathless" is somehow encouraging conceptual proliferation?
This is the important bit: "The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion...."

The Asaṅkhata Saṃyutta of the Saṃyuttanikāya offers thirty-three epithets for the goal of practice. Each of these epithets is then explicitly and unequivocally defined as the elimination of passion, aggression, and delusion.
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

Ñāṇa wrote:
kirk5a wrote:When you refer to "conceptual proliferation" which words of mine are you referring to?
Words aren't much of a problem. Clinging to views is a problem.
Clinging to (having consciousness be dependent upon) mental and physical phenomena is a problem.
This is the important bit: "The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion...."

The Asaṅkhata Saṃyutta of the Saṃyuttanikāya offers thirty-three epithets for the goal of practice. Each of these epithets is then explicitly and unequivocally defined as the elimination of passion, aggression, and delusion.
Perhaps the two forms of the Nibbana element (nibbana dhatu) are helpful here.
And what is the Unbinding property with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the agreeable & the disagreeable, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain. His ending of passion, aversion, & delusion is termed the Unbinding property with fuel remaining.[1]

And what is the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. For him, all that is sensed, being unrelished, will grow cold right here. This is termed the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining."[2]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-044" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
And what is the Unbinding property with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the agreeable & the disagreeable, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain. His ending of passion, aversion, & delusion is termed the Unbinding property with fuel remaining.

And what is the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. For him, all that is sensed, being unrelished, will grow cold right here. This is termed the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-044" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"A monk?" Is that like "a person?" Actually, thanks for the quote; it supports my point.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:"A monk?" Is that like "a person?" Actually, thanks for the quote; it supports my point.
Nibbana does not refer to the five intact sense faculties (what we could point to as the monk, the person.) Those are the fuel remaining.

I can't really tell what your point is. Is it that nibbana is a property of a person like muteness? Someone who cannot/does not speak is "mute." It would be silly to think of "muteness" as a self-existent property - it is simply a person who does not speak. Similarly, one could suppose that nibbana simply refers to a person who has no greed, hatred and delusion. Therefore it would be silly to suppose that nibbana was any kind of independent property, when it really is just a description of a person lacking certain psychological conditions. Is that your view?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:"A monk?" Is that like "a person?" Actually, thanks for the quote; it supports my point.
Nibbana does not refer to the five intact sense faculties (what we could point to as the monk, the person.) Those are the fuel remaining.
Nibbana/amata/buddha/arahant/bodhi refers to freedom from greed hatred, and delusion.
I can't really tell what your point is. Is it that nibbana is a property of a person like muteness?
This is the problem with words. You are the one who introduced "property" into this discussion and then you willfully refuse to discuss what it means. Nibbana is no thing.
Someone who cannot/does not speak is "mute." It would be silly to think of "muteness" as a self-existent property - it is simply a person who does not speak. Similarly, one could suppose that nibbana simply refers to a person who has no greed, hatred and delusion. Therefore it would be silly to suppose that nibbana was any kind of independent property, when it really is just a description of a person lacking certain psychological conditions. Is that your view?
Well, before I answer this question, you need to answer mine:
  • If "nibbana does exist" and there is at this time no ariyas, there is still a nibbana existing out there somewhere in some way? Where? What is its property? And what does it mean "nibbana does exist?"
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by Nyana »

kirk5a wrote:Clinging to (having consciousness be dependent upon) mental and physical phenomena is a problem.
Yes, it is.
kirk5a wrote:Perhaps the two forms of the Nibbana element (nibbana dhatu) are helpful here.
Which are nicely elaborated upon in the Paṭisambhidāmagga Suññatākathā:
  • Through the stream-entry path one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of defilements associated with wrong view; through the once-returner path one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of gross defilements; through the non-returner path one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of secondary defilements; through the arahant path one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of all defilements [i.e. ignorance].

    Or through the nibbāna component (nibbānadhātu) without any fuel remaining for one who is fully aware this occurrence of eye ends and no further occurrence of eye arises; this occurrence of ear ends and no further occurrence of ear arises; this occurrence of nose ends and no further occurrence of nose arises; this occurrence of tongue ends and no further occurrence of tongue arises; this occurrence of body ends and no further occurrence of body arises; this occurrence of mind ends and no further occurrence of mind arises.

    This is the ultimate meaning of emptiness [as it relates to] all kinds of emptiness, which is the terminating of occurrence in one who is fully aware.
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:
  • If "nibbana does exist" and there is at this time no ariyas, there is still a nibbana existing out there somewhere in some way? Where? What is its property? And what does it mean "nibbana does exist?"
I think your question is an attempt to "objectify the non-objectified." Therefore it is one to be set aside.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

Paṭisambhidāmagga Suññatākathā wrote: This is the ultimate meaning of emptiness [as it relates to] all kinds of emptiness, which is the terminating of occurrence in one who is fully aware.
Cool. Which is the deathless.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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DarwidHalim
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by DarwidHalim »

I personally do not like this translation of deathless. It is too easy to be misunderstood as permanent self.

This is another perspective to the discussion of amatta as the consequence of dependent arising.

I prostrate to the Perfect Buddha,
The best of teachers, who taught that
Whatever is dependently arisen is
Unceasing, unborn, Unannihilated, not permanent, Not coming, not going,
Without distinction, without identity,
And free from conceptual construction.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

DarwidHalim wrote: I prostrate to the Perfect Buddha,
The best of teachers, who taught that
Whatever is dependently arisen is
Unceasing, unborn, Unannihilated, not permanent, Not coming, not going,
Show us where the Buddha taught that.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
  • If "nibbana does exist" and there is at this time no ariyas, there is still a nibbana existing out there somewhere in some way? Where? What is its property? And what does it mean "nibbana does exist?"
I think your question is an attempt to "objectify the non-objectified." Therefore it is one to be set aside.
I am not the one who is saying that "nibbana does exist," which, if anything, suggests an objectifying the nibbana, as the locution "the Deathless." tends to do. You quoted this" Nibbana exists"; not me. I am simply trying to get at what you think it means. So, explain to us what "nibbana does exist" means.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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DarwidHalim
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by DarwidHalim »

If I say "the deathless", no matter how I want to avoid, I will definitely trap myself into existence of self.

No matter how good we say there is no self, but this statement the deathless just confirm the existence of what we have denied before.

We are trying to say there is no fire, but there is burning.

You will just contradict your own self without the way to get out.

The deathless is a very poor translation.
Last edited by DarwidHalim on Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
Paṭisambhidāmagga Suññatākathā wrote: This is the ultimate meaning of emptiness [as it relates to] all kinds of emptiness, which is the terminating of occurrence in one who is fully aware.
Cool. Which is the deathless.
Sure. No longer liable to birth, and if one is no longer liable to birth one is longer liable to death, there is freedom from death, there is no longer a defining by death. The problem, however, with the unfortunate locution "the Deathless," is very neatly spelled by our new member who clearly gets it:

  • There is an interesting passage in Nietzsche's Twilight of the Idols that says "I am afraid we are not rid of God because we still have faith in grammar."

    Now obviously Nietzsche's worldview and that of Buddhism are quite different, but I think this is an instructive passage, and especially so for Buddhists. This becomes more apparent if we substitute 'self' for 'God' in Nietzsche's quote, or if we see the two concepts as somewhat co-extensive. The point of the quote is that our everyday patterns of thought, language and "common sense" themselves are all structured around the idea of permanent, separate entities; that there is some enduring substratum that constitutes my "self" and other substrata underlying the various "objects" that my "self" comes into contact with (the idea of God can be understood as the idea that there is some permanent ground to the whole of being itself). As such, these cognitive-linguistic structures can and often do subtly reinforce the illusion of self and all of its attendant suffering.

    Seen in this context, I think tilt's point about how the translation as "the deathless" implies that there is some 'thing' or object that is described by this locution is more than just grammatical hairsplitting. It's basically identifying how the very language we use to describe nibbana actually reinforces the kind of grasping habits of thought that we are trying to liberate ourselves from. English in particular seems prone to reinforcing these habits through the use of the copula, its requirement of grammatical subjects, and its tendency to reify concepts as nouns (rather than rendering them as processes or verbs). Thus speaking as somebody without anything but a very basic familiarity with Pali, I think there is a lot of merit to what tilt is suggesting and that for these reasons alone it's worth considering his perspective.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:So, explain to us what "nibbana does exist" means.
No.

I am going to return to the open air of heedfulness, the path to the deathless.

Have a good day.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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