the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by ancientbuddhism »

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Cittasanto et al: Seems like we are not listening/understanding each other. Let me try one more analogy: If a story appeared in a well read newspaper, or on the evening news that a mouse had eaten a cow, would you find the story credible? No! Such a story would be incredible, unbelievable, beyond the realm of reasonableness! Now if I told you that the author of The Four Noble Truths, the doctrine, which explains how to end dukkha in all of its various forms advised to behave in a manner which produced horrific suffering, stress and dissatisfaction, would your believe me, would you find such a story credible, believable?

If your answer is yes, then in that way you and I are different. :anjali: Ron

Unlike you, then I do not believe everything that is written in the newspapers, nor in the suttas.
I cannot engage in your specious, straw-man arguments. But for what it is worth ...

Not accepting (or just leaving alone) some statements of the Buddha as incongruent or lacking relevance is your mahāpadesa privilege, I suppose. But I would suggest just leaving these alone, as you may be perceived as rather silly when making claims on what was or was not said by another so far removed from corroborative evidence.

With reference to the allowances given in the vinaya for bhikkhus and bhikkhunis as to what foods may be consumed (not all foods offered and received on piṇḍapāta may be consumed due to the ignorance of the doner), the reasons were – and still are – culturally evident.

With reference to meat as representing the violence which delivered it, it still does not transfer the intention of such to me. This is where the clause about hearing the killing or rumor of it intended for the recipient comes in.

And as far as meat representing a sentient being, it does so no more or less than my leather sandals.

A suggestion I’m sure I have posted before in this thread is this:
  • Perhaps it is the laity that could lead the way. If they followed these precepts of right livelihood, bhikkhus would be vegetarian by default.

    Pañcimā bhikkhave, vaṇijjā upāsakena akaraṇīyā. Katamā pañca:
    Satthavaṇijjā, sattavaṇijjā, maṃsavaṇijjā, majjavaṇijjā, visavaṇijjā.
    Imā kho bhikkhave, pañca vaṇijjā upāsakena akaraṇīyāti.

    “Bhikkhus, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five?

    Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.

    "These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in.”

    – Vaṇijja Sutta AN.5.177
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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ancientbuddhism wrote: And as far as meat representing a sentient being, it does so no more or less than my leather sandals.
Actually, most vegans don't use, purchase or wear leather products. However, it is pretty much impossible to avoid some animal products -- they are everywhere. I think there may have been a picture of a cow here in this thread or over at our Mahayana sister site which showed just how many animal products are in so many everyday things that we use.
ancientbuddhism wrote: Perhaps it is the laity that could lead the way. If they followed these precepts of right livelihood, bhikkhus would be vegetarian by default.
There is no arguing (or at least there shouldn't be, imo) that if the whole world were Buddhist there wouldn't and couldn't be any slaughter houses (no one to do the killing or to be the butchers). So it is at least an ideal state and perhaps a goal, but the Buddha was interested in including as many as possible on the Path from suffering, so used skillful means in my opinion and also knowing that the majority of the people in Buddhism's infancy were practicing Brahmanism (precursor to Hinduism) and still ate meat. Therefore, there is no requirement to be vegetarian, but from one perspective it can be seen as a 'goal' of practice to eventually eliminate flesh foods from purchase and then as you say, the bhikkhus would become de facto vegetarians (by default).
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Cittasanto »

David N. Snyder wrote: There is no arguing (or at least there shouldn't be, imo) that if the whole world were Buddhist there wouldn't and couldn't be any slaughter houses (no one to do the killing or to be the butchers). So it is at least an ideal state and perhaps a goal, but the Buddha was interested in including as many as possible on the Path from suffering, so used skillful means in my opinion and also knowing that the majority of the people in Buddhism's infancy were practicing Brahmanism (precursor to Hinduism) and still ate meat. Therefore, there is no requirement to be vegetarian, but from one perspective it can be seen as a 'goal' of practice to eventually eliminate flesh foods from purchase and then as you say, the bhikkhus would become de facto vegetarians (by default).
Certainly in an ideal world all would be practicing Buddhists, but then how many Buddhists do actually work in wrong livelihood establishments in Buddhist countries (fishing, slagughter...)? (and yes I know that is a fallacy argument as I do not know of any statistics)
it is one of those things which can not be forced on people, they will kill if they do not have a good enough reason not to, just look at so called Christian countries and Christian who keep the precept not to murder, the Catholic Church is a fine example of that sentencing people to death then getting the state to do the dirty work so on the surface their hands are clean.
Last edited by Cittasanto on Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

ancientbuddhism :Pañcimā bhikkhave, vaṇijjā upāsakena akaraṇīyā. Katamā pañca:
Satthavaṇijjā, sattavaṇijjā, maṃsavaṇijjā, majjavaṇijjā, visavaṇijjā.
Imā kho bhikkhave, pañca vaṇijjā upāsakena akaraṇīyāti.

“Bhikkhus, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five?

Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.

"These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in.”

– Vaṇijja Sutta AN.5.177
Yes. We covered this point some time ago. There would be no need to slaughter if there were no demand. Just as there would be no business for drug pushers if there were no drug addicts.

Cittasanto: I misquoted. The story I cited came from The Jataka Tales not from The Dhammapada. Sorry. And, off hand I don't have a citation. I will have to look it up. :jawdrop:
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A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Cittasanto »

Ron-The-Elder wrote: Cittasanto: I misquoted. The story I cited came from The Jataka Tales not from The Dhammapada. Sorry. And, off hand I don't have a citation. I will have to look it up. :jawdrop:
if you know of a link it would be appreciated also.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by ancientbuddhism »

Cittasanto wrote: Certainly in an ideal world all would be practicing Buddhists, but then how many Buddhists do actually work in wrong livelihood establishments in Buddhist countries (fishing, slagughter...)? (and yes I know that is a fallacy argument as I do not know of any statistics)
it is one of those things which can not be forced on people, they will kill if they do not have a good enough reason not to, just look at so called Christian countries and Christian who keep the precept not to murder, the Catholic Church is a fine example of that sentencing people to death then getting the state to do the dirty work so on the surface their hands are clean.
The laity often admit that they cannot keep (or even try to wrt addictions) 5 sīla, what to say of rare injunctions such as in the Vaṇijja Sutta.

I used to feel piqued about my responsibility as a recipient while walking piṇḍapāta through one of BKK’s oldest markets on Thanon Nakhon Sawan. One regular donor there is a butcher who always offered proper foods (not raw or with blood etc.), while I walked through the ice-water mixed with blood in front of their stall.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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Cittasanto wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote: Cittasanto: I misquoted. The story I cited came from The Jataka Tales not from The Dhammapada. Sorry. And, off hand I don't have a citation. I will have to look it up. :jawdrop:
if you know of a link it would be appreciated also.
source: http://www.informatics.buu.ac.th/~suwan ... df=1&id=53" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Prince Temiya
The Temiya Jataka is the story of the Bodhisatta in his life as Temiya, who used patience and endurance in the face of
difficult obstacles in order to attain his goal, which was to avoid making bad kamma and to realize his determination to
leave the home life and become a recluse. In this life the Bodhisatta fulfilled the perfection of renunciation (nekkhamma
paramita). Prince Temiya was afraid of ascending the throne because he was saddened to see the king’s men
punishing bandits on the king’s orders, such as by flogging them a thousand times or stabbing them with spears
and knives, so he devised a strategy of pretending to be retarded, deaf and dumb. He didn’t talk to anyone. Even
when he was tested in various ways he was able to withstand them and refrained from showing any suspicious signs.
This was all in order to get out of taking over the throne. This continued until he was 16 years old. The king consulted
with his Brahmans and was advised to take the prince and bury him. The protests of his mother were fruitless, so she
asked if he could at least ascend the throne for seven days. Still the prince refused to talk. At the end of the seven days,
a charioteer took him in a chariot to be buried at the king’s orders. While they were digging the hole, the prince
stepped down from the chariot and announced the truth to the charioteer, that he intended to leave the home life. The
charioteer was inspired by his words and wanted to become a recluse with him. The prince instructed him to take the
chariot back first. The charioteer related what had happened to the prince’s mother and father, and they, together
with their ministers and royal retinue, went to invite the prince back to ascend the throne, but the prince instead
instructed them on the benefits of solitude and renunciation of sensual pleasures. The king and queen and their retinue
were inspired by his teachings and all left the home life to live the homeless life, and there were many other kings who
listened to the prince’s teaching and asked to follow him. ‘I am not going back to the palace. I have
severed myself from enjoyment of all treasures. I have endured for these 16 years. The royal treasures, the city and its
http://www.informatics.buu.ac.th/~suwanna/mambo_bak" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - Watpahsunan Website, Ajahn Mitsuo Gavesako, watsunantavanaram Powered by Mambo Generated: 3 August, 2012, 18
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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ancientbuddhism wrote: Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.

"These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in.”
– Vaṇijja Sutta AN.5.177
Good point.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Ron
Thanks, is it in the KN or another place?

hi porpoise
where did Ancient Buddhism quote the text to make that point?
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by daverupa »

Cittasanto wrote:where did Ancient Buddhism quote the text to make that point?
Page 78 of this thread originally, then 87.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

Cittasanto wrote:Hi Ron
Thanks, is it in the KN or another place?

hi porpoise
where did Ancient Buddhism quote the text to make that point?
Not sure about KN, but here is another reference to the same story:

https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/jrblack/web ... jataka.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is another version: http://ignca.nic.in/jatak058.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Cittasanto »

Ron-The-Elder wrote: http://ignca.nic.in/jatak058.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hi Ron,
This is to the same site I quoted from earlier with the other Jataka story, at the bottom of the page it says if it is in the pali or not, and in this case it is.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Which diet are you?

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

Hi, Dave.

My choices are driven not only by choices, but by health. Try to stick to vegan, but often supplement with (very) small portions of animal flesh. Mostly fish.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: Which diet are you?

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Ron-The-Elder wrote:Hi, Dave.

My choices are driven not only by choices, but by health. Try to stick to vegan, but often supplement with (very) small portions of animal flesh.

Dear David and "Ron-The-Elder",

Have you ever try MOON CAKE (lotus seed/mung-bean/sessame seed inside..more special/expensive with also salty eggyolk inside.) YUMMY!!!!
you can buy at any big China town in Vegas/Houston/SanFrancisco etc. expensive but YUMMY indeed!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoGd1PZyJak" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just 1 bite and you 'll love it :heart:
yawares :thumbsup:
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Re: Which diet are you?

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

yawares wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:Hi, Dave.

My choices are driven not only by choices, but by health. Try to stick to vegan, but often supplement with (very) small portions of animal flesh.

Dear David and "Ron-The-Elder",

Have you ever try MOON CAKE (lotus seed/mung-bean/sessame seed inside..more special/expensive with also salty eggyolk inside.) YUMMY!!!!
you can buy at any big China town in Vegas/Houston/SanFrancisco etc. expensive but YUMMY indeed!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoGd1PZyJak" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just 1 bite and you 'll love it :heart:
yawares :thumbsup:
Hi, Yawares. Yes! Have tried Moon Cakes, and I actually at one time had a recipe for making them. These are usually found in Chinese/Asian restaurants, which also serve Dim Sum. :anjali: Ron
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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