Vipassana movement

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
danieLion
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Re: Vipassana movement

Post by danieLion »

mikenz66 wrote:...this dichotomy tends to be in the minds of those who complain about it.
That's quite possible. He speaks quite derisively of samatha, but only in the context of talking about how his attempts at it failed.
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Daniel
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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana movement

Post by tiltbillings »

greggorious wrote:Then there's the 'One Dharma' book by Joseph Goldstein, trained as a Theravada Monk but now incorporates Zen and Tibetan. Is this all part of the Vipassana movement?
There are 372 talks by Goldstein here. One will find here not some warm fuzzy, airy-fairy, feel-god hodgepodge mixture of different schools; rather, what one finds in Goldstein's talks is a highly skilled, a highly practiced and highly studied teacher deeply grounded in the Buddha-Dhamma of the Pali/Theravada. As a matter of of wanting to understand the various other traditions of Dhamma, he worked with teachers of these traditions, finding with in them value, but at his core his commitment is to the Dhamma. Goldstein did not train as monk, and being a monk does not, in and of itself, make one a better teacher.
MartyP wrote:In 1975, Jack Kornfield, Sharon Salzberg, Joseph Goldstein, Jon Kabat-Zinn, and others, after having studied and
practiced abroad and here, met up in some fashion and formed the non-profit "Insight Meditation Society,"
and in 1976 purchased real property and opened a retreat in Barre, Massachusetts.
"Kabat-Zinn and others" are not founders of IMS.
MartyP wrote:It appears to me that their object was to bring Mindfulness Meditation, Insight Meditation/Vipassna
to the US in a secular manner, so as to avoid the religious connotations, and thus avoid the "religious" Buddhist
teachings and such aspects that would alienate a large portion of the population who would thus be deprived
of the benefits of what appears to be, if one would stop at the beginners stage, "mindfulness meditation lite."
Having attended 3 three-month retreats at IMS, I can say that this is, to understate it, not an accurate description. One need not be a Buddhist to attend retreats there, but the teachings are within a Buddhist context. Nothing "mindfulness meditation lite" about the practice and the teachings at IMS.

MartyP wrote:I met a gentleman this past month, who had been meditating for less than a month, who was seriously considering
going on a 10 day Vipassana retreat in Jesup, Georgia. This sounded quite unusual as a teaching technique.
I wonder if this is part of the movement.
It is a Goenka retreat center: http://courses.dhamma.org/en-US/schedules/schpatapa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
danieLion wrote:Is the vipassana "movement" just Buddhist Modernism run amok?

In this video Rev. Sujato challenges:

"I don't think anybody who seriously considers what the Buddha said in the suttas, or who has any appreciation for the historical context of the Buddhist scriptures, can seriously maintain that the Buddha taught a path of pure vipassana" (5:42-6:02).
I would not dare speak for all the "vipassana teachers" out there, but the teachers that I have worked with would never have made this mistake. It is not in the suttas, the commentaries, the Visuddhimagga, the teachings of Ledit Sayadaw, Mahasi Sayadaw, U Pandita, U Ba Khin, all of which are the foundation of the "vipassana movement."
danieLion wrote: But I do know at least one practitioner who claims to do "dry insight" to the exclusion of samatha and jhana.
The problem with that is that in actual practice the "dry" practice is not so dry. "Dry insight" is something of a theoretical construct, but in actual practice, as it is carefully looked at we see something a bit different, which is why the idea of "vipassana jhanas" has been put forth to better characterize the practice: http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/talk/305/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Modern Western/American Vipassana Meditaion is a whipping boy for some purists out there, but far more often than not the characterization is a generalized caricature.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Cittasanto
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Re: Vipassana movement

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Is this thread about the meditation movement which calls the method they use vipassana (such as Goenka) or the technique of vipassana?
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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danieLion
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Re: Vipassana movement

Post by danieLion »

tiltbillings wrote:
danieLion wrote: But I do know at least one practitioner who claims to do "dry insight" to the exclusion of samatha and jhana.
The problem with that is that in actual practice the "dry" practice is not so dry. "Dry insight" is something of a theoretical construct, but in actual practice, as it is carefully looked at we see something a bit different, which is why the idea of "vipassana jhanas" has been put forth to better characterize the practice: http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/talk/305/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Modern Western/American Vipassana Meditaion is a whipping for some purists out there, but far more often than not the characterization is a generalized caricature.
Hi Tilt,
I've listened to this talk a few times now. IMHO, it shares the perspective, with the likes of Gil Fronsdal and Rev. Thanissaro that while jhāna requires some persistence and effort it's not that hard and is to be expected (Corollary to this is the idea that the jhānas are part of ordinary human psychology and experience, and that their augmenting and re-organizing in tandem with the Buddha's teleology is the practicing of--as opposed to theorizing about--jhāna .). This has the advantage of sidestepping the rather almost purely academic debate as to what jhāna actually is. We have the stock sutta description and the Buddha's own injunction to DO jhāna, but I'm not aware of anywhere where the Buddha can be found debating the meaning of jhāna.
Kind regards,
Daniel
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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana movement

Post by tiltbillings »

danieLion wrote: Hi Tilt,
I've listened to this talk a few times now. IMHO, it shares the perspective, with the likes of Gil Fronsdal and Rev. Thanissaro that while jhāna requires some persistence and effort it's not that hard and is to be expected (Corollary to this is the idea that the jhānas are part of ordinary human psychology and experience, and that their augmenting and re-organizing in tandem with the Buddha's teleology is the practicing of--as opposed to theorizing about--jhāna .). This has the advantage of sidestepping the rather almost purely academic debate as to what jhāna actually is. We have the stock sutta description and the Buddha's own injunction to DO jhāna, but I'm not aware of anywhere where the Buddha can be found debating the meaning of jhāna.
Kind regards,
Daniel
I think that is a reasonable assessment. As for the Buddha and the suttas on jhana, I suspect that the monks at the time of the Buddha worked with their preceptors/teachers, as the Buddha advised. What is described in the suttas is an outline, and the teachers fleshed out the jhana in terms of directing their students this way or that as needed. After the death of the Buddha the tendency seems to have been to push jhana to deeper levels. And this is pretty much the argument Leigh Brasington makes this point in his interview with Richard Shankman: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 7&#p140097" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On a personal note: I was taught jhana by a teacher trained by Mahasi Sayadaw. It was certainly jhana in in terms of the Visuddhimagga. For a number of reasons I dropped any concern with jhana and certainly with cultivating concentration to the VM levels of jhana. Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass about jhana, and I certainly don't give a rat's ass obtaining this or that level of anything and I certainly don't give a rat's ass obtaining ariya status. It is all too easy to get lost in that stuff. For me I simply do the practice. Paying attention sometimes flows with ease and grace, and other times it takes considerable persistence and constancy. What I like about the idea of the vipassana jhana model is that, as you indicate, these factors are just part of the practice of paying attention.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
danieLion
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Re: Vipassana movement

Post by danieLion »

Well put, dear Tilt. And thanks for posting the Goldstein talk. It lead me to his talks on pain at Dharmaseed. He really is an excellent Dharma teacher (and I find his voice and delivery very soothing).

I think I'm turning towards sharing your "rat's ass" perspective on it all (awakening "stages", jhana, etc...).

Best,
Daniel
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Ytrog
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Re: Vipassana movement

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Although Tiltbillings explained that the following quote is not (entirely) true I want you to pretend it is for the sake of argument:
It appears to me that their object was to bring Mindfulness Meditation, Insight Meditation/Vipassna
to the US in a secular manner, so as to avoid the religious connotations, and thus avoid the "religious" Buddhist
teachings and such aspects that would alienate a large portion of the population who would thus be deprived
of the benefits of what appears to be, if one would stop at the beginners stage, "mindfulness meditation lite."
I think the above example goes against Buddhism in an important way for the following reason: As I understand it the Buddha didn't care much for the number of followers he had (I remember a story where he told a man to think it through before becoming a follower, though I can't find it at the moment). He taught one Dhamma in the full as there is one truth and no other.
To thin the teaching out by presenting it as a "light" version will help none to reach the goal with it and damages the teaching of the Dhamma. One can not teach the Dhamma only partially and expect anyone to reap the full benefits. Even more so it can cultivate a perception that you don't need a lot of the non-secular "baggage" in the Dhamma and that it can be ignored without consequence while in reality the Dhamma exists in that form for a good reason. If people are, for example, only taught a single technique of watching the mind they can miss valuable parts that may seem very religious like prostration which in reality is a very good way to cultivate humility. The whole path is designed so that all parts reinforce each other.

In short I think that the Buddha would never have altered his teaching to appeal to a larger group of people. He recognized that it was not for everyone although anyone was welcome. I personally hope that a "light" version never becomes the norm for the reason I mentioned above. Let's put quality above quantity.

I realize I express some things strongly, however the above should be interpreted as a big IMHO. What do you think? :anjali:
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana movement

Post by tiltbillings »

Ytrog wrote:Although Tiltbillings explained that the following quote is not (entirely) true I want you to pretend it is for the sake of argument:
It appears to me that their object was to bring Mindfulness Meditation, Insight Meditation/Vipassna
to the US in a secular manner, so as to avoid the religious connotations, and thus avoid the "religious" Buddhist
teachings and such aspects that would alienate a large portion of the population who would thus be deprived
of the benefits of what appears to be, if one would stop at the beginners stage, "mindfulness meditation lite."
I think the above example goes against Buddhism in an important way for the following reason: As I understand it the Buddha didn't care much for the number of followers he had (I remember a story where he told a man to think it through before becoming a follower, though I can't find it at the moment). He taught one Dhamma in the full as there is one truth and no other.
To thin the teaching out by presenting it as a "light" version will help none to reach the goal with it and damages the teaching of the Dhamma. One can not teach the Dhamma only partially and expect anyone to reap the full benefits. Even more so it can cultivate a perception that you don't need a lot of the non-secular "baggage" in the Dhamma and that it can be ignored without consequence while in reality the Dhamma exists in that form for a good reason. If people are, for example, only taught a single technique of watching the mind they can miss valuable parts that may seem very religious like prostration which in reality is a very good way to cultivate humility. The whole path is designed so that all parts reinforce each other.

In short I think that the Buddha would never have altered his teaching to appeal to a larger group of people. He recognized that it was not for everyone although anyone was welcome. I personally hope that a "light" version never becomes the norm for the reason I mentioned above. Let's put quality above quantity.

I realize I express some things strongly, however the above should be interpreted as a big IMHO. What do you think? :anjali:
I understand you point, but do understand mine: It would be quite wrong to assume that all American teachers of vipassana teach a "light" version of the Dhamma.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana movement

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danieLion wrote:Well put, dear Tilt. And thanks for posting the Goldstein talk. It lead me to his talks on pain at Dharmaseed. He really is an excellent Dharma teacher (and I find his voice and delivery very soothing).
He is also excellent in a one-to-one teaching situation.
I think I'm turning towards sharing your "rat's ass" perspective on it all (awakening "stages", jhana, etc...).

Best,
Daniel
I would want to make a point here about that. I am not perforce criticizing others who feel a need for careful, detailed study and practice in those terms.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ytrog
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Re: Vipassana movement

Post by Ytrog »

Tiltbillings wrote:It would be quite wrong to assume that all American teachers of vipassana teach a "light" version of the Dhamma.
It was meant by me as a what-if scenario for the sake of argument as I explain in the first sentence. I surely hope that it is not really the case.
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana movement

Post by tiltbillings »

Ytrog wrote:
Tiltbillings wrote:It would be quite wrong to assume that all American teachers of vipassana teach a "light" version of the Dhamma.
It was meant by me as a what-if scenario for the sake of argument as I explain in the first sentence. I surely hope that it is not really the case.
It may be the case among some, but I am just responding I terms of those, not you, who have been critical of American vipassana teachers as a whole for what a few happen to do. I share your concerns.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
danieLion
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Re: Vipassana movement

Post by danieLion »

tiltbillings wrote:
danieLion wrote:Well put, dear Tilt. And thanks for posting the Goldstein talk. It lead me to his talks on pain at Dharmaseed. He really is an excellent Dharma teacher (and I find his voice and delivery very soothing).
He is also excellent in a one-to-one teaching situation.
I think I'm turning towards sharing your "rat's ass" perspective on it all (awakening "stages", jhana, etc...).

Best,
Daniel
I would want to make a point here about that. I am not perforce criticizing others who feel a need for careful, detailed study and practice in those terms.
Granted. I still have hope some coherence and uniformity might emerge from it.
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