staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.

Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Postby danieLion » Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:49 am

monkey_brain wrote:Sleep debt in the presence of what should be adequate sleep amounts indicates a possible sleep pathology.

Hi monkey_brain,
"Sleep debt" implies there's an ideal amount/type of sleep; and associating sleep problems with pathology is really pushing it.
Best,
Daniel
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Postby danieLion » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:07 pm

Permission to Sleep While You Meditate
Excellent Q & A reply here:

Stream: http://dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/96/1456.html

Download: http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/talk/1456/

Starting at 49:00 and ending at 54:10

One of the most startling things--discoveries--I made about tiredness in practice is that a good part of it came from my attachment to being wakeful.


Best,
Daniel
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Postby Richard Paul Johnson » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:38 pm

There is a book called "Living, Dreaming, Dying: wisdom of Tibetan psychology" by Rob Nairn, its an extremely good introduction to dream yoga, i practiced it and regularly experienced lucid dreaming. I feel like Theravada has something to learn from this kindof dream yoga.
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Postby Kim OHara » Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:51 am

danieLion wrote:
monkey_brain wrote:Sleep debt in the presence of what should be adequate sleep amounts indicates a possible sleep pathology.

Hi monkey_brain,
"Sleep debt" implies there's an ideal amount/type of sleep; and associating sleep problems with pathology is really pushing it.
Best,
Daniel

Can I take the middle way here?
Johnny has mentioned sleeping 8 - 8.5 hrs/night and still being sleepy or able to sleep very easily.
'Sleep debt' is simply not having had 'enough' sleep according to one's personal needs. Some people are fine with 5, others (I know some in my own family) accumulate a genuine sleep debt if they don't average 9 - 9.5.
So it's perfectly possible the OP does have a sleep debt but no 'sleep pathology', even if he is really sleeping well for those 8 8.5 hours.
It is also possible (but less likely, IMO) that there is some interruption to Johnny's sleep without which 8.5 would be enough. It might be environmental (nearby factory starting up at 4 a.m.?) or a health issue.
The simplest thing to do is probably just sleep longer each night and see what happens.

:namaste:
Kim
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Postby monkey_brain » Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:12 am

danieLion wrote:
monkey_brain wrote:Sleep debt in the presence of what should be adequate sleep amounts indicates a possible sleep pathology.

Hi monkey_brain,
"Sleep debt" implies there's an ideal amount/type of sleep; and associating sleep problems with pathology is really pushing it.
Best,
Daniel


It implies individual needs. And by pathology here, I simply mean a sleep problem. Like Obstructive Apnea, or Periodic Limb Movements. Something of that sort, which can cause many, many (unremembered) arousals and keep someone from progressing into the restorative deep stages of sleep.
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Postby johnny » Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:17 am

Richard Paul Johnson wrote:There is a book called "Living, Dreaming, Dying: wisdom of Tibetan psychology" by Rob Nairn, its an extremely good introduction to dream yoga, i practiced it and regularly experienced lucid dreaming. I feel like Theravada has something to learn from this kindof dream yoga.


dream yoga is awesome! "the tibetan yogas of dream and sleep" by tenzin wangyal rinpoche is excellent as well! you should check it out. although the dream yoga technique is disrupting too daily life unless you're a monk imho. you have too think "this is all a dream, i'm dreaming, etc." at ALL TIMES. so if you're training on a new skill or something for your occupation, it's hard too do both. if you keep up the yoga really strong, you have trouble focusing on what you're doing, if you lose the yoga while at work, it's hard too develop. still an EXCELLENT book, definitely recommended.

but one that will teach you lucid dreaming that you can use for dream yoga, but that also takes into account that you are not a monk is "exploring the world of lucid dreaming" by stephen laberge and howard rheingold. it is easily the top success rate for lucid dreaming book. most highly recommended out of them all. it gives a bunch of methods too try so you can find which works best for you. and a lot of scientific explanation. he even covers the dream yoga method in brief!
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Postby johnny » Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:19 am

monkey_brain wrote:
danieLion wrote:
monkey_brain wrote:Sleep debt in the presence of what should be adequate sleep amounts indicates a possible sleep pathology.

Hi monkey_brain,
"Sleep debt" implies there's an ideal amount/type of sleep; and associating sleep problems with pathology is really pushing it.
Best,
Daniel


It implies individual needs. And by pathology here, I simply mean a sleep problem. Like Obstructive Apnea, or Periodic Limb Movements. Something of that sort, which can cause many, many (unremembered) arousals and keep someone from progressing into the restorative deep stages of sleep.


i have LOTS of dreams, full on audio, visual experiences just like waking life (as opposed too little mini dreams and images that can happen in light sleep). i used too write them down and got up too three whole notebook pages each morning. you only have these kinds of dreams during REM, which is the restorative kind of sleep. or at any rate, it means i am going through all the stages.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Postby johnny » Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:22 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:
danieLion wrote:
monkey_brain wrote:Sleep debt in the presence of what should be adequate sleep amounts indicates a possible sleep pathology.

Hi monkey_brain,
"Sleep debt" implies there's an ideal amount/type of sleep; and associating sleep problems with pathology is really pushing it.
Best,
Daniel

Can I take the middle way here?
Johnny has mentioned sleeping 8 - 8.5 hrs/night and still being sleepy or able to sleep very easily.
'Sleep debt' is simply not having had 'enough' sleep according to one's personal needs. Some people are fine with 5, others (I know some in my own family) accumulate a genuine sleep debt if they don't average 9 - 9.5.
So it's perfectly possible the OP does have a sleep debt but no 'sleep pathology', even if he is really sleeping well for those 8 8.5 hours.
It is also possible (but less likely, IMO) that there is some interruption to Johnny's sleep without which 8.5 would be enough. It might be environmental (nearby factory starting up at 4 a.m.?) or a health issue.
The simplest thing to do is probably just sleep longer each night and see what happens.

:namaste:
Kim



good points. i think sleeping a more regular schedule would help. sometimes it's 1-9am. sometimes 3-10am. sometimes 9-5am. all depends on work schedule. other than that though i sleep like a rock. nothing wakes me up.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Postby Ytrog » Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:59 am

I want to add to this all that when you take a nap it is best to take a power nap. This is a small nap of no more than 30 minutes (I usually do 20) and causes you to feel surprisingly rested. Do it for any longer than 30 minutes and you will slip in the deep sleep phase which when broken off causes sleep inertia. This will only make you feel drowsy and not rested at all.

I hope this helps a bit with preventing disapointments if you where planning to take the advise of taking a nap that some have posted in this thread. :)
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.


mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments


If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Postby Alobha » Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:16 am

johnny wrote:i have LOTS of dreams, full on audio, visual experiences just like waking life (as opposed too little mini dreams and images that can happen in light sleep). i used too write them down and got up too three whole notebook pages each morning. you only have these kinds of dreams during REM, which is the restorative kind of sleep. or at any rate, it means i am going through all the stages.


"LOTS" of dreams most likely indicate more rem-sleep, but that is not simply the restorative kind of sleep. SWS / Slow wave sleep (Sleep phase 3 and 4) are the phases that help with bodily fatigue, REM not so much. If you constantly have dreams you might be constantly nearly awake, which is not a good thing for restorative sleep. One orthodox idea would be visiting a doctor if this kind of sleep pattern persists for a longer time already. It's reasonable to check for any bodily sleep disfunctions if you still feel very sleepy after a full night of sleep.

Take care and best wishes,
Alobha
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Re: staying awake during meditation, non standard ideas welcome.

Postby monkey_brain » Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:40 am

johnny wrote:i have LOTS of dreams, full on audio, visual experiences just like waking life (as opposed too little mini dreams and images that can happen in light sleep). i used too write them down and got up too three whole notebook pages each morning. you only have these kinds of dreams during REM, which is the restorative kind of sleep. or at any rate, it means i am going through all the stages.


Not to be argumentative, but REM sleep very likely has little to no benefit for adults. Nor does it quite imply that you are going through all the other stages.

Still, if the sleepiness is only an issue during meditation, and not a persistent feature of regular life, then that does speak against the "sleep disorder" theory.

May you be well and happy.
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