web of views

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web of views

Postby befriend » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:47 pm

what does one do when they get a wrong view. say someone denies karma. and they know its a wrong view but just cant seem to accept karma. when the thought "i cant beleive karma" comes up into there minds should they just not cling to that thought and let it pass. or should they try to figure it out and develop right view through study.

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Re: web of views

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:50 pm

They could try sticking their hand in a fire and see if it hurts.
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Re: web of views

Postby befriend » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:26 pm

hahah so your saying just by having the wrong view one would be in enough pain to simply let go of it, or am i reading that wrongly? thank you

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Re: web of views

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:54 pm

Careful, systematic study may help to resolve doubts about the path, but thinking and reading too much without enough practice just gets you deeper into confusion. We cannot possibly gain direct knowledge about kamma and rebirth by thinking. Put to one side what you cannot know, and pay attention to what is knowable. Doubt is a mental hindrance that prevents the development of concentration and insight.

The Armies of Māra: Doubt

Immaturity of insight prevents a yogi from reaching a firm and convinced position. Instead, his or her mind is condemned to run about among various options. Remembering all the meditative techniques he or she has heard of, a yogi might try a bit from here and a bit from there. This person falls into a great pot of chop suey, perhaps to drown. Vicikicchā can be a terrible obstacle in practice. The proximate cause of doubting conjecture is lack of proper attention, an improper adjustment of the mind in its search for truth. Proper attention, then, is the most direct cure for doubt. If you look correctly and in the right place, you will see what you are looking for: the true nature of things. Having seen this for yourself, you will have no more doubt about it.
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Re: web of views

Postby Ben » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:42 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Careful, systematic study may help to resolve doubts about the path, but thinking and reading too much without enough practice just gets you deeper into confusion. We cannot possibly gain direct knowledge about kamma and rebirth by thinking. Put to one side what you cannot know, and pay attention to what is knowable. Doubt is a mental hindrance that prevents the development of concentration and insight.

The Armies of Māra: Doubt

Immaturity of insight prevents a yogi from reaching a firm and convinced position. Instead, his or her mind is condemned to run about among various options. Remembering all the meditative techniques he or she has heard of, a yogi might try a bit from here and a bit from there. This person falls into a great pot of chop suey, perhaps to drown. Vicikicchā can be a terrible obstacle in practice. The proximate cause of doubting conjecture is lack of proper attention, an improper adjustment of the mind in its search for truth. Proper attention, then, is the most direct cure for doubt. If you look correctly and in the right place, you will see what you are looking for: the true nature of things. Having seen this for yourself, you will have no more doubt about it.


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:anjali:
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Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

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Re: web of views

Postby befriend » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:49 pm

thank you very much for that teaching.
apacayana,
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Re: web of views

Postby befriend » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:41 pm

to cure wrong view could one see its baselessness by watching it arise and pass in the mind, seeing it is only impermanent it has no solidity?

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Re: web of views

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:24 pm

The three unwholesome mental kammas — covetousness, ill-will, and wrong-view — arise in the mind. If we apply mindfulness to them, then we can stop them from multiplying and becoming stronger. For example:
  1. If the thought arises, "I want to possess that person's property or wife/husband/partner" is the unwholesome kamma of covetousness (abhijjhā).
  2. “I want to kill that person,” or “I wish that person would just go away,” or “I am glad that person is dead or has gone away,” are the unwholesome thoughts of ill-will
  3. “I don't believe there is any existence after death,” or “I don't think anyone could possibly know the destiny of beings in the next existence,” or “I don't think there is any harm in entertaining lustful or angry thoughts,” or “I think it is OK to steal from the wealthy,” etc., are the unwholesome kammas of wrong-view.
Right-mindfulness is able to see the arising and passing away of such thoughts, and right-view discerns that they are unskilful. Right effort is the effort to remove unwholesome states, and to prevent their arising again in the future. Right thought abandons unskilful thoughts through renunciation of pleasure (nekkhamma sankappa), thoughts of loving-kindness (abyāpāda sankappa), and thoughts of compassion (avihimsa sankappa).
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Re: web of views

Postby Alex123 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Bhante,

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:[*]“I don't believe there is any existence after death,” or “I don't think anyone could possibly know the destiny of beings in the next existence,” ... are the unwholesome kammas of wrong-view.


What if person has good reasons to have difficulty in accepting rebirth, just like one has great difficulty to believe in flat earth?


With best wishes,

Alex
"dust to dust...."

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Re: web of views

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:04 pm

Being uneducated about the Buddha's teaching, inexperienced in practice, and deluded are not good reasons to disbelieve in rebirth.

To learn the Dhamma thoroughly, and to gain mundane right view, let alone supramundane right view, is difficult — that is a given. If the Dhamma was easy to understand, the Buddha would not have been disinclined to teach it.

The rest has already been discussed at length in the Great Rebirth Thread, and doesn't need to be repeated here.
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Re: web of views

Postby befriend » Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:14 pm

after you have right mindfulness does right view happen automatically like the mind judges by itself? will the mind naturally know right from wrong, or must it be learned.

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Re: web of views

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:23 pm

Off-topic posts have been removed. Please stay on topic.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: web of views

Postby drifting cloud » Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:57 pm

befriend wrote:after you have right mindfulness does right view happen automatically like the mind judges by itself? will the mind naturally know right from wrong, or must it be learned.


Speaking for myself, I have noticed that the more mindful I become, the more aware I am of getting caught up in unhelpful thoughts, and the easier it is for me to let go of those thoughts, to stop identifying with them. At the same time, being more mindful means I am more away of conceptual biases in the form of unexamined assumptions and emotional attachments, so my thinking process itself tends to be both more logical and more 'free'. When I am mindful I tend not to try to justify or rationalize actions that I know are 'wrong', and have less hesitation and anxiety about actions that I know are 'right'. In that sense it makes discrimination between right and wrong much easier.

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Re: web of views

Postby befriend » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:38 pm

what if the person still believes that its impossible to see where beings fare as they do after death. they have labeled it as being unskillful but they still believe it, because sometimes we cant choose what we believe.

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Re: web of views

Postby befriend » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:27 pm

how does one prevent the arising of a wrong view through right effort? views can be be knotted and sticky.

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Re: web of views

Postby santa100 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:55 am

befriend wrote:
"how does one prevent the arising of a wrong view through right effort? views can be be knotted and sticky"

You could try the 5-prong plan of attack from MN 20 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html )..

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Re: web of views

Postby ground » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:06 am

befriend wrote:what does one do when they get a wrong view. say someone denies karma. and they know its a wrong view but just cant seem to accept karma. when the thought "i cant beleive karma" comes up into there minds should they just not cling to that thought and let it pass. or should they try to figure it out and develop right view through study.

Where does this urge to either affirm or negate come from? Isn't it consciousess' affirming its own inclination to the extremes "this is right" and "this is wrong" which is self-identification and appropriation of self felt as "this thought/view is mine" and "I am by means of thinking/holding this view"?

"The world in general, Kaccaayana, grasps after systems and is imprisoned by dogmas.[5] But he[6] does not go along with that system-grasping, that mental obstinacy and dogmatic bias, does not grasp at it, does not affirm: 'This is my self.'[7] He knows without doubt or hesitation that whatever arises is merely dukkha[8] that what passes away is merely dukkha and such knowledge is his own, not depending on anyone else. This, Kaccaayana, is what constitutes right view.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

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Re: web of views

Postby befriend » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:33 pm

to prevent unwholsome states from arising one uses sense restraint.

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Re: web of views

Postby befriend » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:54 pm

[quote="Bhikkhu Pesala"]The three unwholesome mental kammas — covetousness, ill-will, and wrong-view — arise in the mind. If we apply mindfulness to them, then we can stop them from multiplying and becoming stronger. For example:


Bikkhu Pesala, is this enough to eliminate a wrong view or does this antidote only keep them from multiplying and becoming stronger? thank you, puja, Befriend

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Re: web of views

Postby Mal » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:59 pm

befriend wrote:what does one do when they get a wrong view. say someone denies karma. and they know its a wrong view but just cant seem to accept karma.


How can you know, in your unenlightened state, if the 'law of karma' is right or wrong? Why not suspend judgement on this? Doing so leads to a calmer mind as you are no longer thinking about this issue, which is unresolvable for the unenlightened mind (or at least for my unenlightened mind!)

Wouldn't it be better to avoid studying too much, keep your mind open, and start meditating more?

befriend wrote: ... when the thought "i cant beleive karma" comes up into there minds should they just not cling to that thought and let it pass. or should they try to figure it out and develop right view through study.


During meditation you should certainly not cling to that, or any other, thought! But outside meditation, exploring these questions seems a good idea to me, at least to get to the state of epoché and ataraxia, as recommended by Pyrrhonian skeptics.


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