blows my mind how many people do not care!

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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby johnny » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:10 pm

Annapurna wrote:
johnny wrote:i understand when someone has another faith or whatever so they don't care about buddhism. but i don't get people who just go through life not practicing anything! they suffer, they cause themselves problems, and it doesn't matter at all too them! you can tell them how great jhana feels or what ultimate reality is supposed too be and how amazing it is when you realize not self and so on, and they just shrug.

i'm not trying too convert people or anything like that, just talking about how people usually respond when i talk about the dhamma. just "blah. whatever, sounds cool. i'd rather watch a reality tv show and get drunk."

i say "once i felt my ego lift for about an hour and it was literally the greatest feeling i've ever had in my life!" :shrug:

i say "once i entered jhana and it was like another world! i didn't see, hear, taste, smell, or feel anything around me, yet i was completely awake, and in total bliss!" :shrug:

and before you think it, it's not me! i can get people interested in physical determinism, or space exploration, or solipsism, or any random thing. but for some reason, epic and truly amazing as it is, the dhamma just doesn't impress most people that i know.

especially strange when the modern medical community generally recommends meditation and mindfulness as things that are good for you! so it's not like trying too get someone interested in something that has no grounding in scientific reality. there are direct, quantifiable, positive results from practicing the dhamma (mostly meditation has been studied for this but nonetheless). but still :shrug:

i guess i was one of these people long ago in my life? not sure though, no one ever told me about any of this, so i don't know how i would have responded.


Hi there, remember how the Buddha got enlightenened under the Bodhi-Tree and upon realizing that he would not be able to reach a lot of people he became hopeless and didn't want to teach the Dhamma?

It took a lot of encouragement from a Deva to make him change his mind....

So, he knew how humans are...

Don't let it upset you.

He knew that most people are run-of-the-mill wordlings and can't see the "truth".

In one suttha (can't remember which) he asked someone who was disppointed:

"What did you expext....?"

So....do not expect too much of them...but I am sure you can imagine now how then Buddha felt...and he was a Supreme Buddha, seeing a lot more than we....

Annapurna


good point! good advice, thanks.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby johnny » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:14 pm

Ben wrote:Not everyone is interested in the Dhamma. Its just a fact of life.
Perhaps they don't have the paramitas to encounter the Buddha Sasana in this life.
The important thing is to live a Dhammic life as much as possible each and every day.
That in itself will generate far more interest than any attempt to get others interested by talking to them about the Dhamma.
kind regards,

Ben



you are absolutely right. oddly, more than a decade ago, when i was just starting off and knew nothing about it, just basic meditation and i bought a book or two, it seemed many people were interested! i had five different people get so interested they went too a temple with me, and all on different occasions.

then i practice for years and years and have some minor accomplishments and can really speak about the benefits of the dhamma from first hand experience, and no one cares lol!

a lot is probably just chance, talking too the right people on the right day!

oh well.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby johnny » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:16 pm

befriend wrote:i also find it very creepy that people can go there whole lives without wondering "why am i alive". its beyond eery. but its weird because it makes sense to wonder about life. i mind my own business and i never talk about buddhism in front of my friends unless they ask.


yeah me too! "what is reality? why am i conscious? what is the universe?" these questions have been with me for as long as i can remember!
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby David2 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:23 pm

To make a little comment on the title of the thread:

It is the aversion or the craving that blows the mind, not the circumstances.

So there is nothing really wrong with circumstances at any time - there can only be something wrong with how we relate to them.
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby manas » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:38 pm

johnny wrote:i understand when someone has another faith or whatever so they don't care about buddhism. but i don't get people who just go through life not practicing anything! they suffer, they cause themselves problems, and it doesn't matter at all too them! you can tell them how great jhana feels or what ultimate reality is supposed too be and how amazing it is when you realize not self and so on, and they just shrug.

i'm not trying too convert people or anything like that, just talking about how people usually respond when i talk about the dhamma. just "blah. whatever, sounds cool. i'd rather watch a reality tv show and get drunk."

i say "once i felt my ego lift for about an hour and it was literally the greatest feeling i've ever had in my life!" :shrug:

i say "once i entered jhana and it was like another world! i didn't see, hear, taste, smell, or feel anything around me, yet i was completely awake, and in total bliss!" :shrug:

and before you think it, it's not me! i can get people interested in physical determinism, or space exploration, or solipsism, or any random thing. but for some reason, epic and truly amazing as it is, the dhamma just doesn't impress most people that i know.

especially strange when the modern medical community generally recommends meditation and mindfulness as things that are good for you! so it's not like trying too get someone interested in something that has no grounding in scientific reality. there are direct, quantifiable, positive results from practicing the dhamma (mostly meditation has been studied for this but nonetheless). but still :shrug:

i guess i was one of these people long ago in my life? not sure though, no one ever told me about any of this, so i don't know how i would have responded.


Hi Johnny

not everyone who expresses disinterest in the Dhamma will be doing so due to lacking any spiritual aspiration at all. For example, most Christians are pretty much closed to giving any other Path even a decent hearing, because they are taught that it is from 'the devil'. lol. People won't always reveal the real reason why they don't wish to hear about Buddhism!

As for those who are just trying to live happily in the here-and-now, and who don't appear to you to be interested in anything higher or spiritual - well that is the impression they give, but if we could see into their hearts, which we currently can not, we might see deep inside a dread and fear of what is to come, in the sense of how our bodies are prone to accidents, being broken, and eventually growing old and dying - a dread that they don't seem to have the strength to face right now. I feel compassion for such people.

As for those who really are heedless, intoxicated and offensive etc - even in the Buddha's day there were people like that around! Why does it surprise you? feel sorry for them too, because you know what kind of future they are preparing for themselves, if they don't mend their ways!

One more thing - we need to know how to tell people about the Dhamma. The Buddha actually gave some guidelines about it, we are not supposed to talk about things people are totally not ready for.

"It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma should be taught to others only when five qualities are established within the person teaching. Which five?

"[1] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak step-by-step.'

"[2] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak explaining the sequence [of cause & effect].'

"[3] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak out of compassion.'

"[4] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak not for the purpose of material reward.'

"[5] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak without hurting myself or others.'[1]

"It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma should be taught to others only when these five qualities are established within the person teaching."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Surely' step by step' means we don't jump directly to jhana experiences when relating the Dhamma to uninstructed people, unless they have asked you about it. Otherwise, you might just confuse them. Even more so I would not tell someone right off the bat that 'the body is not self...feelings are not self...'(etc) because that information should come later, when they have comprehended a few other issues first. If I talk about the merits of meditation, I just tell people that it relaxes me, gives my mind more clarity, and helps me get through the rest of the day - which is all true in any case, but is also simple enough to not confuse them!

Above all - don't stress... People believe different things - that's how the world is :anjali:

metta
Primum non nocere: "first, do no harm."
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:06 pm

:goodpost:

I think it's important to approach conversations with others carefully, so as not to come across as some sort of Budhist-evangelist, rejecting the significant good points that exist in almost all religious paths.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_24.html

A "quote" that is sometimes useful to keep in mind is:
Not everyone likes a Buddhist, everyone likes a Buddha.


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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby johnny » Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:03 am

David2 wrote:To make a little comment on the title of the thread:

It is the aversion or the craving that blows the mind, not the circumstances.

So there is nothing really wrong with circumstances at any time - there can only be something wrong with how we relate to them.


your wise words are true, but extremely broad and apply just as much too every action and thought of every person (other than arahants and perhaps a few exceptions or neutral events) as they do too my thread title.

there is never anything wrong with the circumstances of anything at any time, any where in ultimate reality. the whole problem is how we relate too things. so you could go around too every thread on this forum and post this (reworded too fit their posts), then go too every one you see and say this, then write it in history books about the actions of almost every person who ever lived, and so on, and so on.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby johnny » Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:07 am

mikenz66 wrote::goodpost:

I think it's important to approach conversations with others carefully, so as not to come across as some sort of Budhist-evangelist, rejecting the significant good points that exist in almost all religious paths.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_24.html

A "quote" that is sometimes useful to keep in mind is:
Not everyone likes a Buddhist, everyone likes a Buddha.


:anjali:
Mike



i'm talking about speaking too close friends whom i know their spiritual views already, and as i said in the op: i'm not trying too convert people. i'm just making conversation. i am extremely careful not too come off like that. no one likes a salesman trying too push something on them.

oh and, everyone likes a buddha EXCEPT devadatta :tongue:
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:28 am

Hi johnny,
johnny wrote:i'm talking about speaking too close friends whom i know their spiritual views already, and as i said in the op: i'm not trying too convert people. i'm just making conversation. i am extremely careful not too come off like that. no one likes a salesman trying too push something on them.

Your enthusiasm is admirable, but, if you don't mind some frank observation, from reading your posts, I could imagine how your friends might interpret your conversation as a little overenthusiastic, and just turn off. I think most people here would have friends for whom trying to discuss Dhamma too directly would be counter-productive. I think it's better to just use a Dhamma approach with people ("be a Buddha").

:anjali:
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby johnny » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:16 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi johnny,
johnny wrote:i'm talking about speaking too close friends whom i know their spiritual views already, and as i said in the op: i'm not trying too convert people. i'm just making conversation. i am extremely careful not too come off like that. no one likes a salesman trying too push something on them.

Your enthusiasm is admirable, but, if you don't mind some frank observation, from reading your posts, I could imagine how your friends might interpret your conversation as a little overenthusiastic, and just turn off. I think most people here would have friends for whom trying to discuss Dhamma too directly would be counter-productive. I think it's better to just use a Dhamma approach with people ("be a Buddha").

:anjali:
Mike


interesting that you would come too such a conclusion. i am on a dhamma site posting these things. concluding that my posts on here match what i say too non-buddhists is border line absurd, if you don't mind some frank feed back. why would i blather on about things that are in depth dhamma ideas that a non-buddhist would find not only boring but utterly incomprehensible? i have randomly broached the topic with all of my close friends. as i said, talk about jhana here and there, consciousness a couple of times, nothing too deep or pushy, just some of the more exciting things that they may relate to (and out of ten or so, three do relate) these conversations lasted all of sixty seconds to two minutes at the most, i see they're not interested and i change the subject. with the people who do not seem interested, i don't bring it up again unless it's directly relevant. friend: "my doctor said my blood pressure is high." me: "i think meditation can lower it according too some studies.". other than situations like that (which are rare), i do not speak about the dhamma at all with these people as they clearly are not interested. i have a little more insight into how not too annoy my friends than you give me credit for.

i told you clearly that i am not trying too convert people and that i am very careful about what i say. i don't know why that would make you decide "hey, i'm going too try too tell this guy his friends think he's overenthusiastic!" which is just rephrasing your earlier comment that i shouldn't sound like an evangelist, which i already replied too and made it clear this is not what i do, and it's in the op. so... yeah... not sure where you were going with this. ignoring everything i said though, i won't be surprised if your next post is something like: "maybe you should try not talking about the dhamma with people who don't care? they may like you more and you will have more friends that way. based on your posts here, i imagine you probably don't understand how too talk too people without pushing them away." etc.

you not only said that i am overenthusiastic with people that i know in real life, but also in doing so implied that my posts on this site are overenthusiastic. double insult. "overenthusiastic" implies that i am over some kind of socially acceptable limit, very negative thing too say too someone you do not know in a public setting. what would you have me change about my posts on this forum?

EDIT: i just looked over all my posts, almost all are me asking questions by starting threads! this is a passive process and if you are drawing conclusions between this and real life for some reason, it would imply that i rarely talk too people about the dhamma unless they are coming to me too answer a question i have asked by posting it on a bulletin board about something too do with the dhamma or in some other way posed a question in a passive manner that would allow me too wait for someone too see it, find it interesting, and only then approach me too speak about it. i don't even go too other people's threads and ask questions, i almost exclusively have posted questions and waited for replies and only then do i discuss anything with anyone.
Last edited by johnny on Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:19 am, edited 5 times in total.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:36 am

Hi Johnny,

It's hard to figure out people what people are really like from internet conversations, and so I could be completely wrong, since all I've got to go on are your posts here and on DharmaWheel. So feel free to ignore me. There is certainly nothing wrong with your posts, they simply give me the impression of a very active, talkative person. Hence my sincere advice would be to listen more carefully and talk less. As Ben said above:
Ben wrote:The important thing is to live a Dhammic life as much as possible each and every day.
That in itself will generate far more interest than any attempt to get others interested by talking to them about the Dhamma.


:anjali:
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby johnny » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:42 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Johnny,

It's hard to figure out people what people are really like from internet conversations, and so I could be completely wrong, since all I've got to go on are your posts here and on DharmaWheel. So feel free to ignore me. There is certainly nothing wrong with your posts, they simply give me the impression of a very active, talkative person. Hence my sincere advice would be to listen more carefully and talk less. As Ben said above:
Ben wrote:The important thing is to live a Dhammic life as much as possible each and every day.
That in itself will generate far more interest than any attempt to get others interested by talking to them about the Dhamma.


:anjali:
Mike


and i need too talk less and should listen more! great tact man. must be nice too be a mod or whatever you are that you can say whatever you want as if you are quite above me and can dole out insulting, condescending advice.

especially after i clearly told you i felt your last post too be insulting.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby SamKR » Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:21 am

blows my mind how many dhamma-followers consider a sincere advice as an insult.
(sometimes myself too.)
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:23 am

Hi Johnny,
johnny wrote:and i need too talk less and should listen more! great tact man. must be nice too be a mod or whatever you are that you can say whatever you want as if you are quite above me and can dole out insulting, condescending advice.

It has nothing to do with moderation, since, as I said, there is nothing you've posted that violates the TOS. You asked a question, and you got various comments and advice from various people who have also had experience with discussing Dhamma with non-Buddhists.
johnny wrote:especially after i clearly told you i felt your last post too be insulting.

I'm sorry you think that it was insulting. That was certainly not my intention.

:anjali:
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby johnny » Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:41 am

SamKR wrote:blows my mind how many dhamma-followers consider a sincere advice as an insult.
sometimes me too.



blows my mind how people on forums back each other up when someone is insulted. imagine we were in the work place, i would be one hundred percent in the right, if we were co workers and our boss was nearby they would say that you two need to lay off. mike would probably be written up after i told him i was insulted and he kept going. when someone says they don't want your advice and that it is insulting in respectful real life social situations, it's never appropriate too offer further advice, nor too fall into the classic "clique" mentality and walk up next too the supposed insult creator and offer them back up that is further negative and insulting too the recipient.

but this isn't the real world, is it?

ah too have a green name and be able too give "sincere advice" as much as you want! in real life i'm management at my work and am NEVER allowed too talk to people like you two are talking too me! probably why i don't have a complex that leads me too attempt too talk too people like that on a forum, i've been well trained too withhold possibly insulting words and too apologize immediately if anyone feels insulted. if someone insults me i'm not even allowed too reply other than doing what i've done here "i find that insulting, etc"! after that i would have too either let it go or take it up with my boss or HR.

but here, i have no recourse, i could "report" this, but i won't. there is no point at all! unless a mod is blatantly using cuss words or otherwise going too far, they have utter power (at least on every forum i've ever seen). interesting the dissimilarity too real life. i'm the equivalent too a "mod" at my work, mid management, so the administrators and other higher ups are around just like they are here. but in real life it's all politeness and tact, being so careful too never insult anyone or else receive a talking too from the boss. or get a call from HR. in fact my employees that are below me have much more freedom in this area than i do and the same goes for my boss, he has too use even more tact than i do! i imagine if this was a site where the users had too pay too use it this would not be the case. then i would be a valued customer instead of just a newb too be treated like garbage. if i complained about this specific conversation on this hypothetical site, a customer telling an employee that they are feeling insulted, and the employee just keeps going, i would be whisked away too a land of apologies and possibly free stuff and the employee would get a stern talking too from the boss.

as it is though, i have zero value here. if i study hard and answer lots of questions with great skill, then i would be valued on this forum and people would back me up. maybe even mods and administrators. but i would have too work up too that. work. for free. just so i can get respect on a forum? no thanks.

i suppose in the future i will just ignore such posts, although that's quite difficult. almost like hazing. you have too just "take it" or else face further ridicule, until you become "one of them" and then you can defend yourself and speak your mind.

i suppose i'll try too stick around and be silent when i feel insulted until i become "one of them". or i'll get fed up and go live in reality where, unless you're joining a fraternity or something, you don't have too deal with this kind of juvenile nonsense.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby Mawkish1983 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:47 am

johnny wrote:[This is] juvenile nonsense.
Quite.
Last edited by Mawkish1983 on Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby Mr Man » Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:51 am

[At Veluvana So.na the householder's son approached the Blessed One. The Buddha said:] "Whatever recluses and Brahmans, So.na, hold views about the body, which is impermanent, unsatisfactory and subject to change, such as 'I am better [than you],' 'I am equal [to you],' or 'I am worse [than you]' [likewise 'feeling,' 'perception,' 'mental formations,' 'consciousness'], what else are they but folk who do not see things as they really are?

"But, So.na, whatever recluses and Brahmans do not hold such views... What else are they but those who see things as they really are?"

SN 22.49

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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby johnny » Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:57 am

Mawkish1983 wrote:
johnny wrote:this [is] kind of juvenile nonsense.
Quite.


indeed! on my part as well. likely more so than mike. bottom line though: in a real life polite social situation such as the work place or a customer employee interface, it would have stopped the second i said i felt insulted. not too mention none of us would be saying ANY of this. it's all juvenile. perhaps in order of the most silly too the least silly it would go:

you, for taking the time too post your little ridiculing two cents.

then the guy backing up mike, come on, really? back up? you two are probably tied. get real, you find little interactions and pick sides? no dramatic reality tv shows on where people argue all the time? or i guess this is better because the people on tv can't hear your opinion.

then me for bothering too type even a single line of this! this isn't the real world, this isn't a polite social situation or work place event! this is a freaking forum! what am i doing? and here i've fallen in, i'm being insulting now!!! wow. too be fair it's in defense totally. i gave mike a couple chances too let up by telling him i was insulted. and with you two back up squad leaders i didn't bother because you jumped in just too get a jab in, so there is no point in giving a chance.

then mike, he wasn't trying too be juvenile, he just felt like it was his place too point out what he thought were my faults and tell me how too fix them (note: my op asks zero questions and does not ask "how can i get people to listen" or anything of the sort. it's just sharing my thoughts. the only question is directed at me "i guess i was one of these people long ago in my life?" and cannot be answered unless someone knew me personally.)
Last edited by johnny on Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby Mawkish1983 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:00 am

johnny wrote:post your little ridiculing two cents.
I posted no ridicule and now this is meta discussion, which is against the TOS.
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Re: blows my mind how many people do not care!

Postby johnny » Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:03 am

Mawkish1983 wrote:
johnny wrote:post your little ridiculing two cents.
I posted no ridicule and now this is meta discussion, which is against the TOS.


what is a meta discussion?

you altered my quote to say "this is" and then let the rest stay normal, so it implies that all of this is juvenile which is not what the quote was originally saying. that's ridiculing, possibly me, mike, and the other guy. but likely just me. you are saying that "this" likely meaning my posts, are juvenile.

you know what? screw it. i've been hassled and now two more jumped in and made it worse. and i'm defending myself and have now been lured into breaking the terms of service! and likely you are breaking them by what you're saying! if you have a problem you should have reported it, not made a little jab and then threatened me with the TOS!

i quit!

have a nice life all.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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johnny
 
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