Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:14 pm

kirk5a wrote:But the idea that an arahant is "subject to" dukkha is not quite right. Again, what the arrow sutta says "He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress."


This is something I've wondered about. In the following extract from the Arrow Sutta, is the "physical" pain dukkha? I'm not sure it's clear!

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental."
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby daverupa » Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:19 pm

Most of us aren't able to separate pain from pain-response, and it's this pain-response by citta which, prior to being nibbanized, is conditioned by those three. Then, after being nibbanized, the pain-response is solely satisampajanna. It might take jhana-strength upekkha to find comfort and a break from the pain, but it is impossible, it cannot happen that this choice, when made by an arahant, will be based on greed, aversion, or delusion.

MN 53 wrote:"Ananda, speak to the Kapilavatthu Sakyans about the person who follows the practice for one in training. My back aches. I will rest it."

Ven. Ananda responded, "As you say, lord."


Who here understands that the Buddha was experiencing dukkha - and thus tanha - at this time? Who here understands that this choice was conditioned by greed, aversion, or delusion?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby ancientbuddhism » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:46 am

daverupa wrote:Most of us aren't able to separate pain from pain-response, and it's this pain-response by citta which, prior to being nibbanized, is conditioned by those three. Then, after being nibbanized, the pain-response is solely satisampajanna. It might take jhana-strength upekkha to find comfort and a break from the pain, but it is impossible, it cannot happen that this choice, when made by an arahant, will be based on greed, aversion, or delusion.

MN 53 wrote:"Ananda, speak to the Kapilavatthu Sakyans about the person who follows the practice for one in training. My back aches. I will rest it."

Ven. Ananda responded, "As you say, lord."


Who here understands that the Buddha was experiencing dukkha - and thus tanha - at this time? Who here understands that this choice was conditioned by greed, aversion, or delusion?


Also wrt Jhāna techniques to release pain:

    Ahaṃ kho panānanda, etarahi jiṇṇo vuddho mahallako addhagato vayo anuppatto. Āsītiko me vayo vattati. Seyyathāpi ānanda, jajjarasakaṭaṃ vekkhamissakena yāpeti, evameva kho ānanda vekkhamissakena maññe tathāgatassa kāyo yāpeti. Yasmiṃ ānanda, samaye tathāgato sabbanimittānaṃ amanasikārā ekaccānaṃ vedanānaṃ nirodhā animittaṃ cetosamādhiṃ upasampajja viharati, phāsutaro ānanda, tasmiṃ samaye tathāgatassa kāyo hoti.

    “Ānanda, I am old now, worn out, great in years, having gone the pathway of life well past its prime, I have reached the point of life which is now eighty years of age. Even as an old cart is maintained by being bound-together in various ways, so the Tathāgata’s body is maintained by being bound-together in various ways. Ānanda whenever the Tathāgata is not attending to any outward forms – feelings cease, and he enters into and abides in a collected repose of the mind; thus at that time, Ānanda, the body of the Tathāgata is comfortable.

    – DN.16.13 (165)
Anuvicca papañca nāmarūpaṃ
ajjhattaṃ bahiddhā ca rogamūlaṃ,
sabbarogamūlabandhanā pamutto
anuvidito tādi pavuccate tathattā
.

“Having known the naming of objects,
With its proliferation, its root in illness – within and without;
One is released from bondage to the root of all illness.
And thus is called the Knowing One – the Such.

– Sn. 3.6 (Sabhiyasuttaṃ)

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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby danieLion » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:09 am

ancientbuddhism wrote:...whenever the Tathāgata is not attending to any outward forms – feelings cease, and he enters into and abides in a collected repose of the mind; thus at that time, Ānanda, the body of the Tathāgata is comfortable.

– DN.16.13 (165) [/list]

Hi ancientbuddhism,
1) This implies the Buddha (often?) experienced bodily discomfort?

2) What is your understanding (or any ones) of the relationship of jhāna to pain relief, especially with chronic pain?

Best,
Daniel

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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby daverupa » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:34 am

danieLion wrote:1) This implies the Buddha (often?) experienced bodily discomfort?


Especially later in life; probably he died from complications surrounding mesenteric infarction, fomented by an itinerant meal plan and any earlier bodhisatta asceticisms.

danieLion wrote:2) What is your understanding (or any ones) of the relationship of jhāna to pain relief, especially with chronic pain?


As far as I can tell, certain types of pain make jhana quite difficult, perhaps impossible, to attain. The Ven. Ghodika (SN 4.23) experienced repeated difficulty which a commentary says was due to some chronic ailment. I think such a prohibitive level of pain is difficult to quantify, and Ghodika's specific attainment isn't made clear such that maybe first jhana isn't enough, but fourth is, to provide an appropriate bulwark.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:59 am

The above msgs were moved from the "Deathless" thread.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby marc108 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:29 am

danieLion wrote:1) This implies the Buddha (often?) experienced bodily discomfort?


im not sure of any scriptual references, but i believe i hearing the Buddha suffered from some sort of chronic back pain... that he would have to lay down & have Ananda give Dhamma talks.


2) What is your understanding (or any ones) of the relationship of jhāna to pain relief, especially with chronic pain?


are you talking about like daily relation to pain or cessation of pain from sense withdrawl in Samadhi.
Last edited by marc108 on Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby daverupa » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:41 am

"According to a new study out of York University, practicing yoga for 75 minutes twice weekly significantly reduced pain and promoted the release of stress-relieving hormones in women with fibromyalgia. Fibromyalgia is a disorder whose symptoms are sensitivity to touch and chronic aching. Sufferers also have lowered levels of the steroid hormone cortisol, which is released in response to stress."
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby Ben » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:50 am

ancientbuddhism wrote:
daverupa wrote:Most of us aren't able to separate pain from pain-response, and it's this pain-response by citta which, prior to being nibbanized, is conditioned by those three. Then, after being nibbanized, the pain-response is solely satisampajanna. It might take jhana-strength upekkha to find comfort and a break from the pain, but it is impossible, it cannot happen that this choice, when made by an arahant, will be based on greed, aversion, or delusion.

MN 53 wrote:"Ananda, speak to the Kapilavatthu Sakyans about the person who follows the practice for one in training. My back aches. I will rest it."

Ven. Ananda responded, "As you say, lord."


Who here understands that the Buddha was experiencing dukkha - and thus tanha - at this time? Who here understands that this choice was conditioned by greed, aversion, or delusion?


Also wrt Jhāna techniques to release pain:

    Ahaṃ kho panānanda, etarahi jiṇṇo vuddho mahallako addhagato vayo anuppatto. Āsītiko me vayo vattati. Seyyathāpi ānanda, jajjarasakaṭaṃ vekkhamissakena yāpeti, evameva kho ānanda vekkhamissakena maññe tathāgatassa kāyo yāpeti. Yasmiṃ ānanda, samaye tathāgato sabbanimittānaṃ amanasikārā ekaccānaṃ vedanānaṃ nirodhā animittaṃ cetosamādhiṃ upasampajja viharati, phāsutaro ānanda, tasmiṃ samaye tathāgatassa kāyo hoti.

    “Ānanda, I am old now, worn out, great in years, having gone the pathway of life well past its prime, I have reached the point of life which is now eighty years of age. Even as an old cart is maintained by being bound-together in various ways, so the Tathāgata’s body is maintained by being bound-together in various ways. Ānanda whenever the Tathāgata is not attending to any outward forms – feelings cease, and he enters into and abides in a collected repose of the mind; thus at that time, Ānanda, the body of the Tathāgata is comfortable.

    – DN.16.13 (165)


Thanks AB,

THis corresponds with my own understanding that the Buddha and Arahants still experience vedana. But if the Arahant or Buddha is in one of the four arupa jhanas or nirodha sammapatti, no vedanas are are experienced. If I remember correctly, I remember reading support in CMA and perhaps Vism.
kind regards,

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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:55 am

If Buddha experience Dukka when he is in normal state and then he didn't experience Dukka while in meditation state, then Buddha is like a batman.

Someone who has this dual normal and super normal state doesn't deserve the name Buddha.

For you the scretch in your face may be a suffering.
But for warrior, the scratch in his face is a proud.

For you headache is a pain.
For Buddha, headache is just a phenomena, not pain nor ornament.

Don't use your human dualistic mind and put your shoes there for someone who has gone dualism.

Yes, Buddha experience headache. But headache is Dukka, that is your interpretation as a human put that on Buddha.

Like you think a scratch on the face in the warrior is a shame.
Put yourself as a warrior, you will proud with that scratch.

You see a girl like a human.
But tiger see a girl as a food.

Headache is a pain, but that is for dualistic human.
You put your shoes and think oh if I have headache it is a Dukka, then if Buddha has a headache, he must be also in dukka.

Please note, are you still have dualistic mind?
Put yourself in non dualistic state, then you ask yourself is headache still a Dukka or not.

Don't use tiger judgement for human world.
Don't use human dualistic mind for Buddha beyond dualistic mind.

It will be odd.

You will make Buddha like a batman.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby danieLion » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:55 am

daverupa wrote:
danieLion wrote:1) This implies the Buddha (often?) experienced bodily discomfort?


Especially later in life; probably he died from complications surrounding mesenteric infarction, fomented by an itinerant meal plan and any earlier bodhisatta asceticisms.

danieLion wrote:2) What is your understanding (or any ones) of the relationship of jhāna to pain relief, especially with chronic pain?


As far as I can tell, certain types of pain make jhana quite difficult, perhaps impossible, to attain. The Ven. Ghodika (SN 4.23) experienced repeated difficulty which a commentary says was due to some chronic ailment. I think such a prohibitive level of pain is difficult to quantify, and Ghodika's specific attainment isn't made clear such that maybe first jhana isn't enough, but fourth is, to provide an appropriate bulwark.

Hi Dave,
I'm perplexed.
In my experience, cultivating the jhāna factors can alleviate pain, and sometimes completely (temporarily during a sit) eliminate it, and I've always attributed the Buddha's practice of jhāna until the end of his life to his way of relieving his own back pain.

I've heard the rumor that chronic pain can wreck concentration. Is this where it comes from?
Best,
Daniel

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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby danieLion » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:10 am

marc108 wrote:
danieLion wrote:1) This implies the Buddha (often?) experienced bodily discomfort?


im not sure of any scriptual references, but i believe i hearing the Buddha suffered from some sort of chronic back pain... that he would have to lay down & have Ananda give Dhamma talks.


2) What is your understanding (or any ones) of the relationship of jhāna to pain relief, especially with chronic pain?


Hi marc,
The Buddha also practiced jhāna, got massages and sun bathed, evidently for chronic back pain.

In the Jara Sutta we read:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother. Now on that occasion the Blessed One, on emerging from seclusion in the late afternoon, sat warming his back in the western sun. Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, massaged the Blessed One's limbs with his hand and said, "It's amazing, lord. It's astounding, how the Blessed One's complexion is no longer so clear & bright; his limbs are flabby & wrinkled; his back, bent forward; there's a discernible change in his faculties — the faculty of the eye, the faculty of the ear, the faculty of the nose, the faculty of the tongue, the faculty of the body."

"That's the way it is, Ananda. When young, one is subject to aging; when healthy, subject to illness; when alive, subject to death. The complexion is no longer so clear & bright; the limbs are flabby & wrinkled; the back, bent forward; there's a discernible change in the faculties — the faculty of the eye, the faculty of the ear, the faculty of the nose, the faculty of the tongue, the faculty of the body."

That is what the Blessed One said. Having said that, the One Well-gone, the Teacher, said further:

I spit on you, old age —
old age that makes for ugliness.
The bodily image, so charming,
is trampled by old age.
Even those who live to a hundred are headed — all — to an end in death,
which spares no one,
which tramples all.
Samyutta Nikaya 48.41 (Rev. Thanissaro tr.)


marc108 wrote:are you talking about like daily relation to pain or cessation of pain from sense withdrawl in Samadhi.

Is there a practical difference?
Best,
Daniel

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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby daverupa » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:56 pm

I think that septuagenarian homeless people wandering a jungle were in tune with some fairly wild pain experiences, which are for the most part unheard of in first-world places today. It's troublesome to assess.

Now, given the renunciate culture of that time, arupas seem to be necessarily attainable despite pain, so this conflict of jhana and pain strikes me as evidence that jhana is a different sort of thing. If so, it might change what the pursuit of Samadhi looks like in cases of pain - massages and sunbathing in order to assuage the level of pain just enough to allow for jhana?

Modern methods such as yoga and medicine are probably enough for this purpose; I tend to think the Buddha would have been happy to allow hatha yoga as a simple calisthenic alongside walking up and down, as long as there was no confusion over metaphysical claptrap, given its pain-relieving capabilities (study linked above). We know he allowed three meals to the Sangha early on, so that would have been his own arrangement when the group of five left him, and it was because he needed a state suitable to striving.

So it was solely due to the requirements of jhana that such eating was allowed, wasn't it? I mean, he first checked out what removing lunch and then dinner would affect before he brought it to the Sangha as new Vinaya, so this tells me that the Vinaya is designed to be as simple and renounced as possible while still allowing for jhana (and the rest of the N8P), which pain (and asceticisms thereby) tended to obstruct. I tend to think he limited his own eating due to a burgeoning pre-infarction, and noticed that it was beneficial generally.

I would conclude that jhana can be attained from states of moderate pain and also moderate pleasure (those householders who could do jhana showcase this aspect), but too much either way and it's an insurmountable barrier. Whether this chronic pain or that chronic pain fits the bill is a matter of differing mileage.

:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby marc108 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:46 pm

danieLion wrote:Is there a practical difference?


i dont understand what you mean?
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby ancientbuddhism » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:09 pm

With reference to vedanā, I apologize that I was not careful to give vedanā the distinction it is given in the pāḷi ekaccānaṃ ~ as ‘certain’ or ‘particular’ (nor did I give cetosamādhi its distinction as ‘signless’ animitta, for that matter). Below is B. Bodhi’s variant reading at SN. 47.9:

    Yasmiṃ ānanda, samaye tathāgato sabbanimittānaṃ amanasikārā ekaccānaṃ vedanānaṃ nirodhā animittaṃ cetosamādhiṃ upasampajja viharati. Phāsutaraṃ ānanda, tasmiṃ samaye tathāgatassa hoti. (PTS – 154)

    “Whenever, Ānanda, by nonattention to all signs and by the cessation of certain feelings, the Tathāgata enters and dwells in the signless concentration of mind, on that occasion, Ānanda, the body of the Tathāgata is more comfortable.”

With reference to the context of ‘certain’ vedanā as with ill-feelings in these readings, this would seem to give this use of jhāna a particularly medicinal or palliative distinction. This, considered with the more often found pericope on jhāna mastery e.g.:

    ‘…catunnaṃ jhānānaṃ ābhicetasikānaṃ diṭṭhadhammasukhavihārānaṃ nikāmalābhī akicchalābhī akasiralābhī’

    “One easily attains the four Jhānas as he wishes, without pain or difficulty, a pleasant abiding known now.” – AN. 4.35

…may indicate jhāna as having a wider range of use and benefits?
Anuvicca papañca nāmarūpaṃ
ajjhattaṃ bahiddhā ca rogamūlaṃ,
sabbarogamūlabandhanā pamutto
anuvidito tādi pavuccate tathattā
.

“Having known the naming of objects,
With its proliferation, its root in illness – within and without;
One is released from bondage to the root of all illness.
And thus is called the Knowing One – the Such.

– Sn. 3.6 (Sabhiyasuttaṃ)

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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:34 pm

danieLion wrote:
marc108 wrote:are you talking about like daily relation to pain or cessation of pain from sense withdrawl in Samadhi.


Is there a practical difference?


I think there is. Leaving aside the question of possible pain relief from being in jhana, would the experience of physical pain be dukkha for a Buddha? I'm still not clear.
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby santa100 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:14 pm

Porpoise wrote:
"would the experience of physical pain be dukkha for a Buddha? I'm still not clear."

The Buddha has transcended all ego notion of "I", "mine", and "myself" so although there's a physical body that experienced painful feeling, there's no "Buddha" who is subjected to dukkha ( or to be more accurate, "not Buddha", "not Buddha's", and "not the Buddha himself")..

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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:47 pm

The power of sAmadhi indeed can eliminate the pain that we feel now.

But we should note here that samadhi cannot remove dukka, although samadhi can remove tha physical pain.

There is a big difference here between freeing yourself from pain because you avoid your attention to it, and freeing your pain because you know the nature of it.

Buddha does not free from physical pain because he change his attention to it. But, he is free from pain because he can see the pain is not his.

When we do a meditation, your leg can pain.

There are two ways to remove that.
1. Don't put attention on it and shift your focus on our object. (samadhi's way)
2. Understanding that nature of the pain as not yours. (vipassana's way)

Another example is if I tell you someone just die and her relative is in deep schock and pain. You will say "oh that is very normal as a human". You have no pain here. Why? Because that pain is not yours.

But if suddenly, I tell you, that someone is your only son. Do you think the pain that you are free previously can make you free from pain now?
Most of us just cannot bear it. For sure, you will be deeply in pain. Why? You will think because my only son die, now I am in pain. But actually that is not the answer. You are in pain because now due to your strong attachment, you make that pain as yours.

Buddha did express in the Sutta that he has headache. He has back pain, etc, whether that is in arrow Sutta, or whatever Sutta.
If this statement give you an impression that Buddha did experience pain, you have gone to far. Because you forget something very important in his teaching that Buddha doesn't have any attachment at every second. He can see very clearly thy every pain is not his. He said this many times in the Sutta that this or that is not yours.

Sometimes, we jump the gun to quickly without seeing the whole structure of Dhamma and conclude Buddha then still subject to pain.

Hang on.

Does he know the back pain is his or not?

If he is never ever away from this wisdom, no matter how you think budhha just cannot be in dukka.

For us that is dukka. But if because of this, we also think that Buddha is in dukka, we have jump the gun too quickly.

We cannot compare something who still see this as yours and someone who no longer see this as yours.

Really, saying Buddha is in pain is a joke. Someone who can see this as not yours doesn't have pain even you cut him 1000 pieces.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby danieLion » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:00 am

DarwidHalim wrote:Buddha did express in the Sutta that he has headache. He has back pain, etc, whether that is in arrow Sutta, or whatever Sutta.
If this statement give you an impression that Buddha did experience pain, you have gone to far.

Hi DarwidHalim,
That depends on what you mean by "experience".
Best,
Daniel

danieLion
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby danieLion » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:07 am

daverupa wrote:I think that septuagenarian homeless people wandering a jungle were in tune with some fairly wild pain experiences, which are for the most part unheard of in first-world places today. It's troublesome to assess....

...I would conclude that jhana can be attained from states of moderate pain and also moderate pleasure (those householders who could do jhana showcase this aspect), but too much either way and it's an insurmountable barrier. Whether this chronic pain or that chronic pain fits the bill is a matter of differing mileage.

:heart:

Hi Dave,
That's a lot to think about--and I will think about it. I don't say this to flatter, but you're one of those people rare to me who's actually able to make me go, "Hmm. I never thought of it like that."
:heart:


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