Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

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Micheal Kush
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Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by Micheal Kush »

After reading the Path of Purification by Buddhaghosa mainly for the benefit of my breathinng meditation and examining the steps of breath meditation elucidated in the suttas, ive noticed some corresponding issues i wish to get clarified. For a while now, i have done my meditation consisting of intensely focusing on my nose tip for the breath to appear and touch(path of purification). So far, so good. However, ive noticed in the suttas it is never stated that one can gain absorbtion or purified concentration by focusing solely on the nose tip which seems to have a lack of presence regarding in the four tetrads.

And i have wondered, are buddhaghosas methods just an easier and elaborated way of breath meditation in the suttas or is it completely different? Does his thesis lack something that the suttas have?

I ask this primarily because recently i decided to expirement a little with my practice in spite of the struggling journey i have had with my breathing practice. When i decided to do the four tetrads, i closely followed the breath at the nose tip but also maintained the duration(long,short) and then when the feeling of bodily fabrications came, i felt this initial shock of calmness that grew with every breath, i started to question what was going on. Everytime an unpleasant feeling arose, i simply just breathed in and calmed it. After i was finished, i investigated it and felt that there must be something wrong because even though i was attuned to my breath, it wasnt fully concentrated the concentration on the breath felt muddled but i felt the joy in which the breath produced.

So are buddhaghosa practice and suttas one and the same? Or should i stick to this dofferent method?

Another reason i ask is because i hear most people say that you should just mind everything else or note it and just go back to the breath. Also, i dont wanna feel like a long enduring path of progress is washed away just because i switched methods. I have gotten fairly good at buddhaghosa technique which is why this recent expierence and examination of the texfs left me with much confusion.

Please clarify

With metta, mike
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Ben
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by Ben »

Greetings Mike.
Personally, I think its a false dichotomy to set the Visuddhimagga against the Suttas. Buddhaghosa's work is a commentary and manual for meditation masters. If you read it as an explanation and manual that is read alongside the suttas, then it will be most beneficial. Most modern meditation methods have their provenance in the Visuddhimagga. Anapana can be practiced to cultivate either samadhi or vipassana.
In my experience, anapana-sati is extraordinarily difficult and subtle. The object of meditation becomes increasingly more difficult to discern the more one progresses. Hence, it is always good to work under the instruction of a teacher or guide. And having chosen a particular approach - stick to it for six months to a year exclusively to give yourself an opportunity to develop some depth of experience and become proficient in the practice.
with metta,

Ben
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Micheal Kush
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by Micheal Kush »

Ben wrote:Greetings Mike.
Personally, I think its a false dichotomy to set the Visuddhimagga against the Suttas. Buddhaghosa's work is a commentary and manual for meditation masters. If you read it as an explanation and manual that is read alongside the suttas, then it will be most beneficial. Most modern meditation methods have their provenance in the Visuddhimagga. Anapana can be practiced to cultivate either samadhi or vipassana.
In my experience, anapana-sati is extraordinarily difficult and subtle. The object of meditation becomes increasingly more difficult to discern the more one progresses. Hence, it is always good to work under the instruction of a teacher or guide. And having chosen a particular approach - stick to it for six months to a year exclusively to give yourself an opportunity to develop some depth of experience and become proficient in the practice.
with metta,

Ben
Defintely agree. I just needed clarification based on those two apporaches. I think its best for me to seek out a teacher.

With metta, mike
Micheal Kush
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by Micheal Kush »

Another problem i have dealing with the factors of concentration, is that if one pointedness is actually a faculty for absorbtion or is it fully body awareness that needs to be developed?

I have a hard time telling which one is most conducive, plus i have never heard of one pointedness in the suttas. Clarification?

With metta, mike
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bodom
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by bodom »

Micheal Kush wrote: i have never heard of one pointedness in the suttas.
See any descripton of the second Jhana found in the Pali canon where common translations include unification of mind, one pointedness of mind etc..

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by Cittasanto »

Micheal Kush wrote:Another problem i have dealing with the factors of concentration, is that if one pointedness is actually a faculty for absorbtion or is it fully body awareness that needs to be developed?

I have a hard time telling which one is most conducive, plus i have never heard of one pointedness in the suttas. Clarification?

With metta, mike
have you read the sutta definition of the second Jhana?
although there is another term which is sometimes used within the first Jhana description which also can translate the same.
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bodom
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by bodom »

Nyanatilokas translation of MN 44 from his classic anthology The Word of the Buddha:
(MN 44) Having the mind fixed to a single object (cittekaggata, lit. "One-pointedness of mind"): this is concentration.
:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
Micheal Kush
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by Micheal Kush »

Cittasanto wrote:
Micheal Kush wrote:Another problem i have dealing with the factors of concentration, is that if one pointedness is actually a faculty for absorbtion or is it fully body awareness that needs to be developed?

I have a hard time telling which one is most conducive, plus i have never heard of one pointedness in the suttas. Clarification?

With metta, mike
have you read the sutta definition of the second Jhana?
although there is another term which is sometimes used within the first Jhana description which also can translate the same.
Huh, must have missed that part -_-

Anyways thanks for the clarification

With metta,mike
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by daverupa »

One-pointedness of mind need not imply single-object absorption; samadhi is best translated as composure, not concentration, imo; it's a certain tenor of six-sense body awareness-&-mindfulness. I'm of the mind to see a backreading of Vedic/Brahamnical meditation values and progress into the Suttas.
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Kamran
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by Kamran »

You may be interested in Thanissaro Bikhu's below talk :

"When the Buddha describes concentration states, he doesn't use images of single-pointedness. He uses images of whole-body awareness...

Progress along the path comes simply from staying right here and growing more and more aware of what's going on all around right here. You develop a more all-around awareness, not only all-around in the body, but also all-around in the mind. You see through the blind spots that allowed you to consume experiences obliviously, forgetting the fact that you had to produce them. It's like watching a movie — two hours of lights flashing up on a screen — and then later seeing a documentary about how they made the movie. "

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#steps
Micheal Kush
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by Micheal Kush »

daverupa wrote:One-pointedness of mind need not imply single-object absorption; samadhi is best translated as composure, not concentration, imo; it's a certain tenor of six-sense body awareness-&-mindfulness. I'm of the mind to see a backreading of Vedic/Brahamnical meditation values and progress into the Suttas.
And this where my confusion lies. Shiuld i practice and devlop more of a full body awareness by attending the breath as Thanssiro Bhikku suggests or a fixated one pointedness that relies solely on where the breath touches?

I know that the suttas mention of a one pointedness, this i dont doubt. However, they also speak of feeling the bodily fabrications to the point where the breath calms it and being focused on the whole body or mind while attending to the breath.

But iguess both methods work as many report tobenefit from both though ive heard Buddhaghosas advice leads to more of a deeper concentration. I guess i will practice and see.

With metta, mike
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by mikenz66 »

Micheal Kush wrote: But iguess both methods work as many report tobenefit from both though ive heard Buddhaghosas advice leads to more of a deeper concentration. I guess i will practice and see.
I don't think it's really accurate to call such things "Buddhaghosa's advice". It's in ancient commentaries that Buddhaghosa translated back into Pali (and summarised in the Visuddhimagga).

Since the suttas don't specify any particular way to use the breath in anapanasati, there is plenty of room for interpretation, elaboration, and experimentation. As you say, different ways of using the breath tend to do different things. See, for example, what I quoted here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 80#p199651" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
Micheal Kush
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by Micheal Kush »

mikenz66 wrote:
Micheal Kush wrote: But iguess both methods work as many report tobenefit from both though ive heard Buddhaghosas advice leads to more of a deeper concentration. I guess i will practice and see.
I don't think it's really accurate to call such things "Buddhaghosa's advice". It's in ancient commentaries that Buddhaghosa translated back into Pali (and summarised in the Visuddhimagga).

Since the suttas don't specify any particular way to use the breath in anapanasati, there is plenty of room for interpretation, elaboration, and experimentation. As you say, different ways of using the breath tend to do different things. See, for example, what I quoted here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 80#p199651" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
Sorry if i caused misconception when i attributed the commentaries as Buddhahosa advice, that is just stemmed from my laziness from spelling Visuddhimagga.

I agree with the response you made, i cant deny a commentary that has aided much of Theravada on the path to Nibbana. I think it comes down to what exactly the Jhanas are, but thats for another time.

With metta,mike
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by mikenz66 »

Micheal Kush wrote: I think it comes down to what exactly the Jhanas are, but thats for another time.
See: The Great Jhana Debate
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4597" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
daverupa wrote:One-pointedness of mind need not imply single-object absorption; samadhi is best translated as composure, not concentration, imo; it's a certain tenor of six-sense body awareness-&-mindfulness. I'm of the mind to see a backreading of Vedic/Brahamnical meditation values and progress into the Suttas.
:goodpost:

8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)
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