Satipatana vs Anapanasati

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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:34 pm

Zom wrote:Anapanasati is the method to develop all four Satipatthanas to the maximum possible level.

Read SN 54.10 8-)


I'm not sure because several of the commentaries I've read describe anapanasati as being primarily about developing jhana - and as we've been discussing it's not all that easy to get a concensus view from the suttas. Or do you mean that jhana is the means to develop the 4 satipatthanas?
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Postby santa100 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:30 pm

Porpoise wrote:
"I'm not sure because several of the commentaries I've read describe anapanasati as being primarily about developing jhana - and as we've been discussing it's not all that easy to get a concensus view from the suttas. Or do you mean that jhana is the means to develop the 4 satipatthanas?"

Bhikkhu Bodhi mentioned from the commentary on the word 'experience' in the anapanasati: "one 'experiences' rapture in two ways: by attaining one of the lower two jhanas in which rapture is present, one experiences rapture in the mode of Serenity; or by emerging from that jhana and contemplating that rapture as subject to destruction, one experiences rapture in the mode of Insight". So, it seems that there's no serial/linear causal relationship between anapanasati and jhana. They mutually condition each other to advance (i.e. focusing on the in-out breath conditions the arising of jhanas; and the jhanas condition the 'experiencing' (joy and happiness/2nd tetrad). Anapanasati could even be used to developed dry-insight by going straight to the 4th tetrad. In short, Anapanasati is the versatile tool for a lot of things: serenity, insight, jhanas, etc..
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Postby twelph » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:40 pm

santa100 wrote:Anapanasati could even be used to developed dry-insight by going straight to the 4th tetrad. In short, Anapanasati is the versatile tool for a lot of things: serenity, insight, jhanas, etc..



So far I count a total of 4 interpretations on the development of Anapanasati:
followed sequentially
followed concurrently
a single tetrad followed exclusively
following a single tetrad encompassing all the rest
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Postby daverupa » Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:03 pm

twelph wrote:
santa100 wrote:Anapanasati could even be used to developed dry-insight by going straight to the 4th tetrad. In short, Anapanasati is the versatile tool for a lot of things: serenity, insight, jhanas, etc..



So far I count a total of 4 interpretations on the development of Anapanasati:
followed sequentially
followed concurrently
a single tetrad followed exclusively
following a single tetrad encompassing all the rest


Throw another one in the mix: one or another tetrad based on the minds inclination, per the simile of the cook at SN 47.8. (This might count as 'concurrently', depending...)
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Postby twelph » Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:29 pm

daverupa wrote:Throw another one in the mix: one or another tetrad based on the minds inclination, per the simile of the cook at SN 47.8. (This might count as 'concurrently', depending...)

What an excellent simile! This is actually my interpretation of concurrently, and the way in which I approach the sutta. Allowing my mind to naturally develop each aspect when the opportunity arises. Trying to seek out an aspect of the teaching seems to make my mind think there is a preference for that experience, and it becomes somewhat exhausting.
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Postby twelph » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:22 pm

WalBarb wrote:When reading this discourse, it remains questionable to me that this discourse is about the "minds inclination" towards a specific satipatthana (if that is the interpretation you are proposing).

Awesome first post, and welcome!

Taking a look at the last line of the sutta:
Because the wise, experienced, skillful monk picks up on the theme of his own mind."

Makes me think that the satipatthana theme the mind has inclined towards is momentary, arising because of certain characteristics that have arisen in the present experience. Not necessarily that certain minds are inclined in certain ways. :anjali:
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Postby daverupa » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:09 pm

WalBarb wrote:When reading this discourse, it remains questionable to me that this discourse is about the "minds inclination" towards a specific satipatthana (if that is the interpretation you are proposing). As I read this discourse, it repeats the same theme with each satipatthana.


Yes, so each tetrad has an exemplar who does or does not pick up the sign of his mind, and this is what renders the satipatthana effort successful or not.

I suggest that given the presence of wholesome factors in both cases ("ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world"), a key interpretive aspect of the simile is that just as "he takes note of his master, thinking, 'Today my master likes X'", so too he needs to note how the mind is responding to the particular tetrad, adjusting accordingly. I might be inclined to call this vitakka-vicara.

---

However:

"There are cases where a foolish, inexperienced, unskillful monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused... not concentrated... he is not rewarded ... with mindfulness & alertness."


So, in the case of the unskilled who does not pick up the sign, as he remains alert and mindful he is not rewarded with mindfulness and alertness. It's rather odd, isn't it?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Postby reflection » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:35 am

As you have noticed, opinions differ quite a lot actually. Some place satipattana on a pedestal, others may place anapanasati on it. And if you go around reading all that's been written on this subject, your head will explode. A lot of people seem to have very fixed views on all of this. And they can go in all kinds of directions to fit the sutta to say what they think. So who should you believe? ..

In my experience it's best to keep a bit of distance from all of this and rely on your own experience instead of the words of others. The goal of our practice is peace and non-attachment. How can you develop this in your meditation? Letting go, that's the important thing. It doesn't really matter if you call it satipattana or anapanasati. In my experience the two circle around one another.

And in my eyes it's unwise to rely too much on one sutta. For example, the satipattana sutta seems to have undergone quite some editing over the years. The different versions of the satipattana are not the same and it seems like certain practices are not from the original version. Things like the 4 noble truths and the aggregates for example. (Look up 'A history of Mindfulness' by Ajahn Sujato if you are interested)

But technically (sorry to throw in another view) I see mindfulness as 'to keep in mind', as recollection or remembrance, which was it's original meaning. It's especially remembering to remove the hindrances as also shown in the cook sutta that was mentioned before. So as it is the 7th factor of the path and concentration the 8th, the correct use of satipattana leads to jhana. However, this technical view has no real central place when I am sitting on the cushion. Then all these ideas are gone. While the suttas are excellent material generally, it's just text that's still a few levels below reality as it really is. This often seems to be forgotten by people who go into detailed analysis of them. But if you have a good understanding of the mind, all this analysis is not needed. And if you could find the truth in the suttas, why meditate at all?

I hope this can help you or others a bit.

With metta,
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Re: Satipatana vs Anapanasati

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:24 am

santa100 wrote:In short, Anapanasati is the versatile tool for a lot of things: serenity, insight, jhanas, etc..


:goodpost:
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