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Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
twelph
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby twelph » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:29 pm


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Cittasanto
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:31 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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daverupa
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby daverupa » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:54 pm


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Cittasanto
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:04 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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daverupa
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby daverupa » Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:23 pm

Yes, sloppy Pali on my part, I apologize. In any event, I see the roughly three occasions of that fifth factor in first jhana in the MN to be accidental intrusion.

santa100
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby santa100 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:02 am

twelph wrote:
"While practicing walking meditation, my breathe becomes very refined and slow. I am not denying from an outside perspective that in 4th jhana the breathe can not be felt or measured, but that does not necessarily mean the breathe has stopped completely. Strong developers of pranayama are able to be buried alive for days because of how much their breathing has slowed. I'm assuming that mind objects take a considerable amount of energy and therefore oxygen to sustain at a constant pace. It doesn't seem so far fetched that someone could still be in motion while their breathe is seemingly non-existent. Though this is all just speculation, considering all I'm basing this on is a small part of a sutta."

The case of yogis being buried alive and survived for days seems possible because they didn't "move" their bodies. I'm not sure about the case of the 'walking' monk though. But if you could provide reference to that sutta that you read, that'd be very helpful..

santa100
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby santa100 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:47 am

daverupa wrote:
"In any event, I see the roughly three occasions of that fifth factor in first jhana in the MN to be accidental intrusion."

I think it makes sense that all 5 jhana factors are there in the first jhana. We know that the five hindrances are absent in the first jhana. And I remember Bhikkhu Bodhi in his MN Audio series mentioned that the five jhana factors serve as the antidotes to those hindrances: Applied thought counters Sloth/torpor, Sustained thought counters Doubt, Rapture counters Anger, Happiness counters Restlessness/remorse, and One-pointedness/ekaggata counters Lust; so, if Lust's been absent in the 1st jhana, that'd mean its antidote, ekaggata must be present..

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daverupa
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby daverupa » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:58 am


santa100
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby santa100 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:01 am

It's from the MN Audio lecture series by Bhikkhu Bodhi. It's kind of tough to "search" for the instance through these mp3 files... :tongue:

http://bodhimonastery.org/a-systematic- ... ikaya.html

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mikenz66
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:09 am


santa100
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby santa100 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:20 am

That'd be very nice Mike.. Anyway, I did a quick search and found it on Bhikkhu Bodhi's essay at: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bd8p/bd8p_17.htm ..

"When concentration is developed, these five factors spring up and counteract the five hindrances. Each absorption factor opposes a particular hindrance. Initial application of mind, through its work of lifting the mind up to the object, counters dullness and drowsiness. Sustained application, by anchoring the mind on the object, drives away doubt. Rapture shuts out ill will, happiness excludes restlessness and worry, and one-pointedness counters sensual desire, the most alluring inducement to distraction. Thus, with the strengthening of the absorption factors, the hindrances fade out and subside"

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daverupa
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby daverupa » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:51 am

I just can't understand why it's missing from the vast majority of pericopes on the matter, and why the ekagatta-lust connection isn't made explicit in the Suttas. Lust is talked about a lot; why is the antidote never mentioned there?

:coffee:

santa100
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby santa100 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:03 am

I find reading the Suttas alone is not enough. Dhamma essays from great teachers like Ven. Thanissaro and Bhikkhu Bodhi do clarify a lot of confusion I had. Never under-estimate the importance of teachers..

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manas
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby manas » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:38 am

Hi all

I wonder if 'one-pointed' is really the most appropriate translation for 'ekagata'. 'One pointed' might lead some to believe that the mind has to be literally brought in on 'a single point in space', rather than there being an awareness of the entire body (as the suttas seem to be describing). Being 'sensitive to' the entire body would not preclude awareness of the breath as well, because it is this very body that moves with each breath in any case. Looking at the definition of 'gata'

Gata [pp. of gacchati in medio -- reflexive function] gone, in all meanings of gacchati (q. v.) viz. 1. literal: gone away, arrived at, directed to

then maybe a better definition of ekagata could be 'gone (to), arrived at, directed to one-(ness)', that 'one' being 'one object' - ie, kaya, rather than the mind flitting about between various objects.

EDIT: On second thoughts, I will defer to the translations of ekaggata offered by others, because it seems that I misunderstood how the pali term was actually put together.

:anjali:
Last edited by manas on Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

twelph
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby twelph » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:56 am


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Dmytro
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby Dmytro » Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:44 am



santa100
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby santa100 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:49 am

twelph wrote:
"Cittasanto posted the sutta earlier:..."

Hi twelph, in the sutta (ref: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ), there're separate sections: Right Concentration section, which is liberation through Emptiness and Imperturbable; and then Right Mindfulness section, which is minding the Four Postures(walking, standing, sitting, lying down), and then Right Speech section, Right Intention section, etc.. I don't see where the Jhana section got mixed in with the Minding of the Four Postures section..

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daverupa
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby daverupa » Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:52 am


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Dmytro
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby Dmytro » Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:04 am

Last edited by Dmytro on Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.


twelph
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Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Postby twelph » Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:16 am



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