Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
santa100
Posts: 6799
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Post by santa100 »

That'd be very nice Mike.. Anyway, I did a quick search and found it on Bhikkhu Bodhi's essay at: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bd8p/bd8p_17.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ..

"When concentration is developed, these five factors spring up and counteract the five hindrances. Each absorption factor opposes a particular hindrance. Initial application of mind, through its work of lifting the mind up to the object, counters dullness and drowsiness. Sustained application, by anchoring the mind on the object, drives away doubt. Rapture shuts out ill will, happiness excludes restlessness and worry, and one-pointedness counters sensual desire, the most alluring inducement to distraction. Thus, with the strengthening of the absorption factors, the hindrances fade out and subside"
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Post by daverupa »

I just can't understand why it's missing from the vast majority of pericopes on the matter, and why the ekagatta-lust connection isn't made explicit in the Suttas. Lust is talked about a lot; why is the antidote never mentioned there?

:coffee:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
santa100
Posts: 6799
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Post by santa100 »

I find reading the Suttas alone is not enough. Dhamma essays from great teachers like Ven. Thanissaro and Bhikkhu Bodhi do clarify a lot of confusion I had. Never under-estimate the importance of teachers..
User avatar
manas
Posts: 2678
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Post by manas »

Hi all

I wonder if 'one-pointed' is really the most appropriate translation for 'ekagata'. 'One pointed' might lead some to believe that the mind has to be literally brought in on 'a single point in space', rather than there being an awareness of the entire body (as the suttas seem to be describing). Being 'sensitive to' the entire body would not preclude awareness of the breath as well, because it is this very body that moves with each breath in any case. Looking at the definition of 'gata'

Gata [pp. of gacchati in medio -- reflexive function] gone, in all meanings of gacchati (q. v.) viz. 1. literal: gone away, arrived at, directed to

then maybe a better definition of ekagata could be 'gone (to), arrived at, directed to one-(ness)', that 'one' being 'one object' - ie, kaya, rather than the mind flitting about between various objects.

EDIT: On second thoughts, I will defer to the translations of ekaggata offered by others, because it seems that I misunderstood how the pali term was actually put together.

:anjali:
Last edited by manas on Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
twelph
Posts: 112
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:03 pm

Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Post by twelph »

santa100 wrote:The case of yogis being buried alive and survived for days seems possible because they didn't "move" their bodies. I'm not sure about the case of the 'walking' monk though. But if you could provide reference to that sutta that you read, that'd be very helpful..
Cittasanto posted the sutta earlier:
Cittasanto wrote: there is a text where walking meditation is talked about in relation to the fourth jhana (in this case called the imperturbable) here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; although I have not looked this further I do believe it won't be full fledged Jhana which can easily be argued as only attainable while sitting silent..., but refering to the qualities of jhana being pressent to the point it can legitimately be called Jhana, yet not to the strength described as Sammasamadhi in the texts, although this list does not discount weaker levels of samadhi whether in its path factor form or training form being right samadhi.
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Post by Assaji »

Hi Daverupa,
daverupa wrote:I just can't understand why it's missing from the vast majority of pericopes on the matter, and why the ekagatta-lust connection isn't made explicit in the Suttas. Lust is talked about a lot; why is the antidote never mentioned there?
Samatha development is the antidote to pasion:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
santa100
Posts: 6799
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Post by santa100 »

twelph wrote:
"Cittasanto posted the sutta earlier:..."

Hi twelph, in the sutta (ref: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ), there're separate sections: Right Concentration section, which is liberation through Emptiness and Imperturbable; and then Right Mindfulness section, which is minding the Four Postures(walking, standing, sitting, lying down), and then Right Speech section, Right Intention section, etc.. I don't see where the Jhana section got mixed in with the Minding of the Four Postures section..
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Post by daverupa »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Daverupa,
daverupa wrote:I just can't understand why it's missing from the vast majority of pericopes on the matter, and why the ekagatta-lust connection isn't made explicit in the Suttas. Lust is talked about a lot; why is the antidote never mentioned there?
Samatha development is the antidote to pasion:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brilliant find; yet I am unable to see how those two qualities, developed in tandem in the course of practice, allow us to conclude that first jhana has a fifth factor. It's an absolute non sequitur.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Post by Assaji »

Hi Manas,
manas wrote:I wonder if 'one-pointed' is really the most appropriate translation for 'ekagata'.
Yes, that's an erroneous translation.

"Ekaggata" is rather "single-tuned'ness":
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5550" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The components of this compound are 'eka' (one) and 'agga' (predominant).
'One pointed' might lead some to believe that the mind has to be literally brought in on 'a single point in space', rather than there being an awareness of the entire body (as the suttas seem to be describing). Being 'sensitive to' the entire body would not preclude awareness of the breath as well, because it is this very body that moves with each breath in any case.


In case of Anapanasati samatha practice, which is a variation of air kasina practice ( http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 097#p90648" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ), the perceptual image (nimitta) of air is indeed spread over the entire body.

However there is also ekaggata with basic colors ( http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5631" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) where the situation is different, since the perceptual image (nimitta) is spread all over the visual perception:

"There are these ten totality-dimensions. Which ten? One perceives the earth-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. One perceives the water-totality... the fire-totality... the wind-totality... the blue-totality... the yellow-totality... the red-totality... the white-totality... the space-totality... the consciousness-totality above, below, all-around: non-dual, unlimited. These are the ten totalities.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Last edited by Assaji on Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
twelph
Posts: 112
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:03 pm

Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Post by twelph »

santa100 wrote:twelph wrote:
"Cittasanto posted the sutta earlier:..."

Hi twelph, in the sutta (ref: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ), there're separate sections: Right Concentration section, which is liberation through Emptiness and Imperturbable; and then Right Mindfulness section, which is minding the Four Postures(walking, standing, sitting, lying down), and then Right Speech section, Right Intention section, etc.. I don't see where the Jhana section got mixed in with the Minding of the Four Postures section..
When the second paragraph says "dwelling by means of this dwelling" it seems to be referring to the prior paragraph, in which it is stated he is attending to the " imperturbable", which I have been lead to believe is the 4th Jhana.
"He attends to the imperturbable. While he is attending to the imperturbable, his mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, grows steady, & indulges in the imperturbable. When this is the case, he discerns, 'While I am attending to the imperturbable, my mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, grows steady, & indulges in the imperturbable.' In this way he is alert there.

"If, while the monk is dwelling by means of this dwelling, his mind inclines to walking back & forth, he walks back & forth [thinking,] 'While I am walking thus, no covetousness or sadness, no evil, unskillful qualities will take possession of me.' In this way he is alert there.
Possibly you can get up and start walking around while in the 4th jhana? All of this is extremely new to me, and I was just going by what Cittasanto commented on.
pegembara
Posts: 3454
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Post by pegembara »

Ekaggata (One -Pointedness) is the one common factor through all the 4 jhanas states. Without fixing the mind one an object, the mind cannot settle (enter samadhi). The mind that is not settled (?monkey mind) cannot be said to be freed from the hindrances especially restlessness. What is debatable is whether full absorption is necessary for jhana.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Post by Cittasanto »

daverupa wrote:I just can't understand why it's missing from the vast majority of pericopes on the matter, and why the ekagatta-lust connection isn't made explicit in the Suttas. Lust is talked about a lot; why is the antidote never mentioned there?

:coffee:
here is a note for the satipatthana translation I done
Sensual lust is the desire for any of the sense objects, sights, sounds, smells tastes or tactile objects. The Ahara Sutta SN46.51) talks of how the hindrances rise and fall, the inappropriate attention to beauty develops sensual lust, while the perception of unattractiveness diminishes and stops sensual lust. Other useful practices and things to develop are; guarding the sense doors, i.e, learning where to focus our attention, and using the perception of unattractiveness appropriately; moderation in eating; suitable conversations with admiral friends; mindfulness as a faculty and a step towards awakening are also useful. Sensual lust is also the underlying tendency of pleasant feelings as found in Cūḷavedalla sutta MN44. In the Pattakamma Sutta AN4.61, the Buddha is addressing a householder, lust (kāmacchanda) changes to “covetousness and rampant greed” (Abhijjhāvisamalobhā.)
it is not a hard push to associate this inappropriate attention with a mental unification.
but considering it is a quality discernible in each Jhana its omission could be seen as a corruption not just its inclussion. I know its absence has confused people at least.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Post by Cittasanto »

manas wrote:Hi all

I wonder if 'one-pointed' is really the most appropriate translation for 'ekagata'. 'One pointed' might lead some to believe that the mind has to be literally brought in on 'a single point in space', rather than there being an awareness of the entire body (as the suttas seem to be describing). Being 'sensitive to' the entire body would not preclude awareness of the breath as well, because it is this very body that moves with each breath in any case. Looking at the definition of 'gata'

Gata [pp. of gacchati in medio -- reflexive function] gone, in all meanings of gacchati (q. v.) viz. 1. literal: gone away, arrived at, directed to

then maybe a better definition of ekagata could be 'gone (to), arrived at, directed to one-(ness)', that 'one' being 'one object' - ie, kaya, rather than the mind flitting about between various objects.

:anjali:
hi Manas
just to quote myself again
The first jhāna factors sometimes includes 'cittass'ekaggata' which can be translated as arriving at a unified mind, although it can also be translated as
one-pointedness of mind
, as-well as
calmness of mind
, however as cetaso ekodibhāva can also be translated in both ways, and is always used for the second Jhana, it would be reasonable to assume jhana has fixed itself upon the opject hence the dropping away of the verbal fabrications.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
reflection
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Post by reflection »

Jhana is absorption. So to enter jhana without absorption is impossible. And absorption naturally is in one object, in the case of jhana the mind. So it's also not reasonably possible to enter it while walking.

With metta, :anjali:
Reflection
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Entering Jhana Without Single Object Absorption

Post by tiltbillings »

reflection wrote:Jhana is absorption. So to enter jhana without absorption is impossible. And absorption naturally is in one object, in the case of jhana the mind. So it's also not reasonably possible to enter it while walking.

With metta, :anjali:
Reflection
One can reach with walking meditation very profound levels of "absorbed" concetration. Often we do not give this practice the credit it is due. But the primary question is, of course, what is meant by jhana/absoprtion. Opinions vary.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Post Reply