Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 4918
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:14 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby daverupa » Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:19 pm


User avatar
ancientbuddhism
Posts: 882
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby ancientbuddhism » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:46 am

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby danieLion » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:09 am


User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby daverupa » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:34 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:59 am

The above msgs were moved from the "Deathless" thread.

User avatar
marc108
Posts: 464
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:10 pm

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby marc108 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:29 am

Last edited by marc108 on Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby daverupa » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:41 am

"According to a out of York University, practicing yoga for 75 minutes twice weekly significantly reduced pain and promoted the release of stress-relieving hormones in women with fibromyalgia. Fibromyalgia is a disorder whose symptoms are sensitivity to touch and chronic aching. Sufferers also have lowered levels of the steroid hormone cortisol, which is released in response to stress."

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby Ben » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:50 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:55 am

If Buddha experience Dukka when he is in normal state and then he didn't experience Dukka while in meditation state, then Buddha is like a batman.

Someone who has this dual normal and super normal state doesn't deserve the name Buddha.

For you the scretch in your face may be a suffering.
But for warrior, the scratch in his face is a proud.

For you headache is a pain.
For Buddha, headache is just a phenomena, not pain nor ornament.

Don't use your human dualistic mind and put your shoes there for someone who has gone dualism.

Yes, Buddha experience headache. But headache is Dukka, that is your interpretation as a human put that on Buddha.

Like you think a scratch on the face in the warrior is a shame.
Put yourself as a warrior, you will proud with that scratch.

You see a girl like a human.
But tiger see a girl as a food.

Headache is a pain, but that is for dualistic human.
You put your shoes and think oh if I have headache it is a Dukka, then if Buddha has a headache, he must be also in dukka.

Please note, are you still have dualistic mind?
Put yourself in non dualistic state, then you ask yourself is headache still a Dukka or not.

Don't use tiger judgement for human world.
Don't use human dualistic mind for Buddha beyond dualistic mind.

It will be odd.

You will make Buddha like a batman.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby danieLion » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:55 am


danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby danieLion » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:10 am


User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby daverupa » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:56 pm

I think that septuagenarian homeless people wandering a jungle were in tune with some fairly wild pain experiences, which are for the most part unheard of in first-world places today. It's troublesome to assess.

Now, given the renunciate culture of that time, arupas seem to be necessarily attainable despite pain, so this conflict of jhana and pain strikes me as evidence that jhana is a different sort of thing. If so, it might change what the pursuit of Samadhi looks like in cases of pain - massages and sunbathing in order to assuage the level of pain just enough to allow for jhana?

Modern methods such as yoga and medicine are probably enough for this purpose; I tend to think the Buddha would have been happy to allow hatha yoga as a simple calisthenic alongside walking up and down, as long as there was no confusion over metaphysical claptrap, given its pain-relieving capabilities (study linked above). We know he allowed three meals to the Sangha early on, so that would have been his own arrangement when the group of five left him, and it was because he needed a state suitable to striving.

So it was solely due to the requirements of jhana that such eating was allowed, wasn't it? I mean, he first checked out what removing lunch and then dinner would affect before he brought it to the Sangha as new Vinaya, so this tells me that the Vinaya is designed to be as simple and renounced as possible while still allowing for jhana (and the rest of the N8P), which pain (and asceticisms thereby) tended to obstruct. I tend to think he limited his own eating due to a burgeoning pre-infarction, and noticed that it was beneficial generally.

I would conclude that jhana can be attained from states of moderate pain and also moderate pleasure (those householders who could do jhana showcase this aspect), but too much either way and it's an insurmountable barrier. Whether this chronic pain or that chronic pain fits the bill is a matter of differing mileage.

:heart:

User avatar
marc108
Posts: 464
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:10 pm

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby marc108 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:46 pm

"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

User avatar
ancientbuddhism
Posts: 882
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby ancientbuddhism » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:09 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 4918
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:34 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

santa100
Posts: 2673
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby santa100 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:14 pm

Porpoise wrote:
"would the experience of physical pain be dukkha for a Buddha? I'm still not clear."

The Buddha has transcended all ego notion of "I", "mine", and "myself" so although there's a physical body that experienced painful feeling, there's no "Buddha" who is subjected to dukkha ( or to be more accurate, "not Buddha", "not Buddha's", and "not the Buddha himself")..

User avatar
DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:47 pm

The power of sAmadhi indeed can eliminate the pain that we feel now.

But we should note here that samadhi cannot remove dukka, although samadhi can remove tha physical pain.

There is a big difference here between freeing yourself from pain because you avoid your attention to it, and freeing your pain because you know the nature of it.

Buddha does not free from physical pain because he change his attention to it. But, he is free from pain because he can see the pain is not his.

When we do a meditation, your leg can pain.

There are two ways to remove that.
1. Don't put attention on it and shift your focus on our object. (samadhi's way)
2. Understanding that nature of the pain as not yours. (vipassana's way)

Another example is if I tell you someone just die and her relative is in deep schock and pain. You will say "oh that is very normal as a human". You have no pain here. Why? Because that pain is not yours.

But if suddenly, I tell you, that someone is your only son. Do you think the pain that you are free previously can make you free from pain now?
Most of us just cannot bear it. For sure, you will be deeply in pain. Why? You will think because my only son die, now I am in pain. But actually that is not the answer. You are in pain because now due to your strong attachment, you make that pain as yours.

Buddha did express in the Sutta that he has headache. He has back pain, etc, whether that is in arrow Sutta, or whatever Sutta.
If this statement give you an impression that Buddha did experience pain, you have gone to far. Because you forget something very important in his teaching that Buddha doesn't have any attachment at every second. He can see very clearly thy every pain is not his. He said this many times in the Sutta that this or that is not yours.

Sometimes, we jump the gun to quickly without seeing the whole structure of Dhamma and conclude Buddha then still subject to pain.

Hang on.

Does he know the back pain is his or not?

If he is never ever away from this wisdom, no matter how you think budhha just cannot be in dukka.

For us that is dukka. But if because of this, we also think that Buddha is in dukka, we have jump the gun too quickly.

We cannot compare something who still see this as yours and someone who no longer see this as yours.

Really, saying Buddha is in pain is a joke. Someone who can see this as not yours doesn't have pain even you cut him 1000 pieces.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby danieLion » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:00 am


danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby danieLion » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:07 am



Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Reductor and 26 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine