"The Deathless" (amata)

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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:Like much of what you have done with what I have said, the problem is, you take it out of context and twist it, which has been pointed out to you. And this particular taking my words out of context is no different.
Your context is right there for all to see and decide if I am twisting anything.
The arahant, in experiencing the rising and falling of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and cognizing, is free of dukkha.
The arahant is "disjoined" from dukkha. The Buddha taught that what is inconstant is dukkha. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and cognizing is inconstant and therefore dukkha.

"Sabbe sankhara dukkha." That is what the Buddha taught.
the congitions that rise and fall are no longer conditioned – asankhata – for the arahant by greed, hatred, and delusion:
Please show me where "asankhata" refers to cognitions.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Like much of what you have done with what I have said, the problem is, you take it out of context and twist it, which has been pointed out to you. And this particular taking my words out of context is no different.
Your context is right there for all to see and decide if I am twisting anything.
And as I clearly showed the context does not support what you are saying I am saying.
The arahant, in experiencing the rising and falling of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and cognizing, is free of dukkha.
The arahant is "disjoined" from dukkha. The Buddha taught that what is inconstant is dukkha. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and cognizing is inconstant and therefore dukkha.

"Sabbe sankhara dukkha." That is what the Buddha taught.
So, when an arahant is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and cognizing, the arahant is suffering, according to you?
the congitions that rise and fall are no longer conditioned – asankhata – for the arahant by greed, hatred, and delusion:
Please show me where "asankhata" refers to cognitions.
The destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is asankhata. -- S.N. IV 359 and S.N. 362.

Let me ask you: as unawakened individuals our cognitions are not conditioned by wanting, a craving for, a grasping after, what reinforces a sense of self; our cognitions are not conditioned by aversion to, a hatred of, that which threatens our sense of self; our cognitions are not conditioned by the fundamental sense that we are at our core an important, lasting agent-self?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

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tiltbillings wrote:So, when an arahant is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and cognizing, the arahant is suffering, according to you?
I'm not an arahant, so I don't have any better explanation than the Arrow Sutta.
The destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is asankhata -- S.N. IV 359 and S.N. 362.
When you were talking about "cognitions" before, it was in the context of "what rises and falls" - "experiencing the rising and falling of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and cognizing." So I don't see how this quote uses "asankhata" as you do, like this:
the congitions that rise and fall are no longer conditioned – asankhata – for the arahant by greed, hatred, and delusion:
Since we are talking about arahants, the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion does not "rise and fall." You used asankhata to describe what rises and falls - that it is "not conditioned by" greed, hatred, and delusion. I don't see how that quote is using "asankhata" as "not conditioned by." That passage is translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi as follows:
SN 43 wrote: And what, bhikkhus, is the unconditioned? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the unconditioned.
Let me ask you: as unawakened individuals our cognitions are not conditioned by wanting, a craving for, a grasping after, what reinforces a sense of self; our cognitions are not conditioned by aversion to, a hatred of, that which threatens our sense of self; our cognitions are not conditioned by the fundamental sense that we are at our core an important, lasting agent-self?
Sorry, don't understand the grammar. What is the question here?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, when an arahant is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and cognizing, the arahant is suffering, according to you?
I'm not an arahant, so I don't have any better explanation than the Arrow Sutta.
Is the The Arrow Sutta describing the arahant or the way to becoming awakened? Either the arahant is free of dukkha grounded in craving, or not. If not, then the FNT are a sham. Being an arahant means that seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and cognizing are not based in craving; they are not, for the arahant, suffering grounded in craving.
kirk5a wrote:When you were talking about "cognitions" before, it was in the context of "what rises and falls" - "experiencing the rising and falling of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and cognizing." So I don't see how this quote uses "asankhata" as you do, like this:
the congitions that rise and fall are no longer conditioned – asankhata – for the arahant by greed, hatred, and delusion:
Since we are talking about arahants, the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion does not "rise and fall." You used asankhata to describe what rises and falls - that it is "not conditioned by" greed, hatred, and delusion. I don't see how that quote is using "asankhata" as "not conditioned by."
You are missing the point. What rises and falls is no longer conditioned by -- what rises and falls is free of the conditioning of -- greed, hatred, and delusion. Greed, hatred, and delusion, having been destroyed, are no longer there to condition our cognitions.
kirk5a wrote:That passage is translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi as follows:
SN 43 wrote:And what, bhikkhus, is the unconditioned? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the unconditioned.
Again, not a very good translation in that we are stuck with asking what is "the unconditioned." What is "unconditioned" are our cognitions. We can drop the "the."
Let me ask you: as unawakened individuals our cognitions are not conditioned by wanting, a craving for, a grasping after, what reinforces a sense of self; our cognitions are not conditioned by aversion to, a hatred of, that which threatens our sense of self; our cognitions are not conditioned by the fundamental sense that we are at our core an important, lasting agent-self?
Sorry, don't understand the grammar. What is the question here?
Let me make it a bit easier, but before I do, let us make it clear that what I said was in response to your request: “Please show me where "asankhata" refers to cognitions.

Let me ask you: as unawakened individuals are our cognitions conditioned by wanting, a craving for, a grasping after, what reinforces a sense of self?

Are our cognitions conditioned by aversion to, a hatred of, that which threatens our sense of self?

Are our cognitions conditioned by the fundamental sense that we are at our core an important, lasting agent-self?

Now, are the arahant’s cognitions characterized by being conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion? I would say that they are unconditioned by – free of the conditioning of – greed, hatred and delusion, given that greed, hatred, and delusion have been destroyed. Otherwise what would be the point of awakening? And don’t forget the arahant is clearly defined by the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

porpoise wrote:
kirk5a wrote:But the idea that an arahant is "subject to" dukkha is not quite right. Again, what the arrow sutta says "He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress."
This is something I've wondered about. In the following extract from the Arrow Sutta, is the "physical" pain dukkha? I'm not sure it's clear!

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental."
That is a reasonable distinction. The dukkha the arahant does not suffer from is that which is the result of craving, grasping, the dukkha that arises from the conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

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tiltbillings wrote:Again, not a very good translation in that we are stuck with asking what is "the unconditioned." What is "unconditioned" are our cognitions. We can drop the "the."
"Monks, these three are fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated [sankhata]. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, alteration (literally, other-ness) of what stays is discernible.

"These are three fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated.

"Now these three are unfabricated characteristics of what is unfabricated [asankhata]. Which three? No arising is discernible, no passing away is discernible, no alteration of what stays is discernible.

"These are three unfabricated characteristics of what is unfabricated."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Clearly then cognitions cannot be what the Buddha called unconditioned - asankhata - because cognitions do arise and pass away.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote: Clearly then cognitions cannot be what the Buddha called unconditioned - asankhata - because cognitions do arise and pass away.
Cognitions arise and fall, but for the arahant cognitions are no longer conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion, which is to say that while cognitions, as they rise and fall, are conditioned by any number other factors they are unconditioned -- freed of conditioning -- by greed, hatred and delusion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

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Upasika Kee Nanayon wrote: § The word sankhata-dhamma — fabricated phenomena — covers conditions of nature that are marked by the three characteristics. The things we have to study are summarized in two words: sankhata dhamma and asankhata dhamma. Both of these terms have a deep and wide range of meaning, especially sankhata dhammas, which are always inconstant, stressful, and not-self. The conditions of sankhata dhamma follow their own swirling currents without end. As for asankhata dhamma — the phenomenon that doesn't change, isn't stressful, but is still not-self — that's something hard to know. But even this refined, subtle condition is something that we shouldn't latch onto.
...
§ If we don't look inward, we make the mind dark and murky. Then when sensory contact comes, the mind can easily get all stirred up. So I ask that you make an effort to peer carefully inward to see what's there in the mind, to see how things arise, to see how mental labels and fabrications arise. That way you'll be able to disband them, destroy them, leaving just the mind pure and simple, with no labels or attachments at all. It will then be empty of defilement. You might call it your inner beauty, Miss Emptiness, who doesn't have to age, doesn't have to grow ill, doesn't have to die — a primal nature that doesn't change. This is something you have to touch right at the mind. It's not the mind itself, but the mind itself is what makes contact with it.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... imple.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote: . . .
Does not address fact that cognitions of an arahant are freed of the conditioning, asankhata, of greed, hatred, and delusion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote: . . .
Does not address fact that cognitions of an arahant are freed of the conditioning, asankhata, of greed, hatred, and delusion.
An arahant sees the deathless, the unconditioned. So I'm sure it's true then that the cognitions of an arahant are, to use your terminology, "freed of the conditioning of" greed hatred and delusion.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
kirk5a wrote: . . .
Does not address fact that cognitions of an arahant are freed of the conditioning, asankhata, of greed, hatred, and delusion.
An arahant sees the deathless, the unconditioned. So I'm sure it's true then that the cognitions of an arahant are, to use your terminology, "freed of the conditioning of" greed hatred and delusion.
So, according to you it might be that nibbana/bodhi is some thing to see. Or it is far more likely that the arahants sees that there cognitions are no longer conditioned by -- are free from the conditioning -- asankhata -- of greed, hatred, and delusion. Don't forget that in the Pali there is no "the" -- no definite particle -- before asankhata.



Image
  • drifting cloud: I am coming very late to this conversation, and do not have the knowledge of Pali to weigh in on the more technical aspects of translation under discussion. Nevertheless, I would like to offer a few comments.

    There is an interesting passage in Nietzsche's Twilight of the Idols that says "I am afraid we are not rid of God because we still have faith in grammar."

    Now obviously Nietzsche's worldview and that of Buddhism are quite different, but I think this is an instructive passage, and especially so for Buddhists. This becomes more apparent if we substitute 'self' for 'God' in Nietzsche's quote, or if we see the two concepts as somewhat co-extensive. The point of the quote is that our everyday patterns of thought, language and "common sense" themselves are all structured around the idea of permanent, separate entities; that there is some enduring substratum that constitutes my "self" and other substrata underlying the various "objects" that my "self" comes into contact with (the idea of God can be understood as the idea that there is some permanent ground to the whole of being itself). As such, these cognitive-linguistic structures can and often do subtly reinforce the illusion of self and all of its attendant suffering.

    Seen in this context, I think tilt's point about how the translation as "the deathless" implies that there is some 'thing' or object that is described by this locution is more than just grammatical hairsplitting. It's basically identifying how the very language we use to describe nibbana actually reinforces the kind of grasping habits of thought that we are trying to liberate ourselves from. English in particular seems prone to reinforcing these habits through the use of the copula, its requirement of grammatical subjects, and its tendency to reify concepts as nouns (rather than rendering them as processes or verbs). Thus speaking as somebody without anything but a very basic familiarity with Pali, I think there is a lot of merit to what tilt is suggesting and that for these reasons alone it's worth considering his perspective.

    Just my 2 baht.
    http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p199149" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:So, according to you it might be that nibbana/bodhi is some thing to see.
In both ways
consummate,[1]
I'm known as Rahula
the Fortunate:
because I'm the son of the Buddha,
because I've the eye that sees Dhammas,
because my fermentations are ended,
because I've no further becoming.
I'm deserving of offerings,
a worthy one
a three-knowledge man,[2]
with sight
of the Deathless.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
daverupa
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by daverupa »

So blind people cannot become arahants? I'm confused... can we hear nibbana, as well as see it, kirk?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

daverupa wrote:So blind people cannot become arahants? I'm confused... can we hear nibbana, as well as see it, kirk?
I wonder how Ven. Rahula would respond to that sort of snide comment.
"This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But you must also find this confusing:
Because these are amazing people, hard to find in the world, i.e., those who dwell touching the deathless element with the body.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, according to you it might be that nibbana/bodhi is some thing to see.
In both ways
consummate,[1]
I'm known as Rahula
the Fortunate:
because I'm the son of the Buddha,
because I've the eye that sees Dhammas,
because my fermentations are ended,
because I've no further becoming.
I'm deserving of offerings,
a worthy one
a three-knowledge man,[2]
with sight
of the Deathless.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"See Dhammas?" Of course theres no capital "D" in Pali, so what does "dhammas" refer to here? How many "Dhammas" are there to be seen?

those who dwell touching the deathless element with the body. So, nibbana/bodhi is a thing, an element, that can actually be touched. I wonder were this thing is when it is not being touched. Any ideas, Kirk?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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