"The Deathless" (amata)

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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
"This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise.
Only one "Dhamma?" What about the the "Dhammas" that are seen?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
daverupa
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by daverupa »

kirk5a wrote:that sort of snide comment
Not at all, but this is one of those things about the internet, so we'll just have to give each other the benefit of the doubt here.

Also, you didn't answer the question. Something such as "no of course not, nibbana isn't a sound or a sight" would have been simple and true; would you agree with this?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:So, nibbana/bodhi is a thing, an element, that can actually be touched. I wonder were this thing is when it is not being touched. Any ideas, Kirk?
Obscured by clinging.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

daverupa wrote:
kirk5a wrote:that sort of snide comment
Not at all, but this is one of those things about the internet, so we'll just have to give each other the benefit of the doubt here.
Ok.
Also, you didn't answer the question. Something such as "no of course not, nibbana isn't a sound or a sight" would have been simple and true; would you agree with this?
Yes.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
daverupa
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by daverupa »

kirk5a wrote:nibbana isn't a sound or a sight
(presumably, then, we will agree that it is not a smell, taste, or tactile impression either)

So if nibbana isn't a thing in one of those five sense gates, do you understand nibbana to be a thing at the mind sense gate?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, nibbana/bodhi is a thing, an element, that can actually be touched. I wonder were this thing is when it is not being touched. Any ideas, Kirk?
Obscured by clinging.
Obscured by clinging? I think you should be posting here: http://www.dharmawheel.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Obscured by clinging is not a Pali teaching, though it is a Mahayana teaching.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

daverupa wrote:
kirk5a wrote:nibbana isn't a sound or a sight
(presumably, then, we will agree that it is not a smell, taste, or tactile impression either)

So if nibbana isn't a thing in one of those five sense gates, do you understand nibbana to be a thing at the mind sense gate?
In "The Debate of King Milinda," Ven. Nagasena said:
Of nibbāna, O king, it cannot be said that it is perceptible by the five senses, but it is perceptible by the mind. The disciple whose mind is pure, and free from obstructions can perceive nibbāna”
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Pesala/Mil ... ments.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

  • kirk5a wrote:
    tiltbillings wrote:So, according to you it might be that nibbana/bodhi is some thing to see.
    In both ways
    consummate,[1]
    I'm known as Rahula
    the Fortunate:
    because I'm the son of the Buddha,
    because I've the eye that sees Dhammas,
    because my fermentations are ended,
    because I've no further becoming.
    I'm deserving of offerings,
    a worthy one
    a three-knowledge man,[2]
    with sight
    of the Deathless.
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
  • kirk5a wrote:
    tilt wrote: "This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise."
    Only one "Dhamma?" What about the the "Dhammas" that are seen?
So, what are these "Dhammas"? Of course theres no capital "D" in Pali, so what does "dhammas" refer to here? How many "Dhammas" are there to be seen? Kirk, please address these questions.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:Obscured by clinging? I think you should be posting here: http://www.dharmawheel.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Obscured by clinging is not a Pali teaching, though it is a Mahayana teaching.
Is your question a "Theravada question," such that we can take a look at what the "Theravada answer" might be?
So, nibbana/bodhi is a thing, an element, that can actually be touched. I wonder were this thing is when it is not being touched. Any ideas, Kirk?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Obscured by clinging? I think you should be posting here: http://www.dharmawheel.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Obscured by clinging is not a Pali teaching, though it is a Mahayana teaching.
Is your question a "Theravada question," such that we can take a look at what the "Theravada answer" might be?
So, nibbana/bodhi is a thing, an element, that can actually be touched. I wonder were this thing is when it is not being touched. Any ideas, Kirk?
I am simply trying to understand what you are saying from a Theravadin/Pali sutta point of view. Now, you have said that nibbana is obscured by clinging. What do we conclude from that? "Nibbana does exist," but is obscured by clinging?

Nibanna is a self-existent thing separate from us, but is only seen or touched when we are pure of mind?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:I am simply trying to understand what you are saying from a Theravadin/Pali sutta point of view.
Ok, well everything I've quoted has been from a Theravadin/Pali sutta point of view. You ask all sorts of questions, some of which I don't know where they've been asked in a Theravadin context. Maybe they have, which is why I keep asking you to point out where. But then if I come up with my own best answer, you say I should post at dharmawheel.net. I'm not going to continue this discussion with you if that's how you're going to go forward. You have basically just suggested I stop posting here.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I am simply trying to understand what you are saying from a Theravadin/Pali sutta point of view.
Ok, well everything I've quoted has been from a Theravadin/Pali sutta point of view. You ask all sorts of questions, some of which I don't know where they've been asked in a Theravadin context. Maybe they have, which is why I keep asking you to point out where. But then if I come up with my own best answer, you say I should post at Dhammawheel.com. I'm not going to continue this discussion with you if that's how you're going to go forward. You have basically just suggested I stop posting here.
I am not suggesting you stop posting here. I am suggesting that your seeming notion that nibbana is a self-existent thing that "does exist" is obscured by clinging is more consistent with some Mahayana ideas rather than what is found in the suttas. The only text you have quoted that "supports' "nibbana does exist" is from Milinda and you have refused to discuss what "nibbana does exist" means.

The suttas texts you have quoted do not support "nibbana does exist" in terms of some thing being obscured by clinging.

Also, as of this writing, you have refused to answer my questions about "Dhammas" and "Dhamma." And you refuse to engage the point that cognitions, that rise and fall, are unconditioned -- asankhata -- by greed, hatred, and delusion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
daverupa
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by daverupa »

kirk5a wrote:The disciple whose mind is pure, and free from obstructions can perceive nibbāna
You know, this reminded me of something; the passage is relevant here:
MN 106 wrote:This is deathless: the liberation of the mind through lack of clinging/sustenance.
This would mean that a liberated mind can be perceived, but not a thing 'liberation'. So, too, one perceives a nibbanized mind, but not a thing 'nibbana'. (Both sentences have the same meaning, of course.)

Would you agree?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:I am not suggesting you stop posting here. I am suggesting that your seeming notion that nibbana is a self-existent thing that "does exist" is obscured by clinging is more consistent with some Mahayana ideas rather than what is found in the suttas. The only text you have quoted that "supports' "nibbana does exist" is from Milinda and you have refused to discuss what "nibbana does exist" means.
The Debate of King Milinda wrote: The Milinda Pañha is an ancient and much venerated book of the Buddhists, indeed regarded so highly as to be included by the Burmese in the Pali Canon.
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Pesala/Mil ... ction.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A thoroughly Theravadin document if I ever saw one, translated by a Theravadin Bhikkhu, Bhikkhu Pesala, a member of this very forum. Now there is a lot in there, so perhaps there is something in there that will satisfy you about what Ven. Nagasena meant by "nibbana does exist."
Also, as of this writing, you have refused to answer my questions about "Dhammas" and "Dhamma."
Sankhata dhammas and asankhata dhamma was discussed in that earlier quotation by Upasika Kee Nanayon, as well as in the quotation from AN 3.47.
And you refuse to engage the point that cognitions, that rise and fall, are unconditioned -- asankhata -- by greed, hatred, and delusion.
I did engage that.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I am not suggesting you stop posting here. I am suggesting that your seeming notion that nibbana is a self-existent thing that "does exist" is obscured by clinging is more consistent with some Mahayana ideas rather than what is found in the suttas. The only text you have quoted that "supports' "nibbana does exist" is from Milinda and you have refused to discuss what "nibbana does exist" means.
The Debate of King Milinda wrote: The Milinda Pañha is an ancient and much venerated book of the Buddhists, indeed regarded so highly as to be included by the Burmese in the Pali Canon.
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Pesala/Mil ... ction.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A thoroughly Theravadin document if I ever saw one, translated by a Theravadin Bhikkhu, Bhikkhu Pesala, a member of this very forum. Now there is a lot in there, so perhaps there is something in there that will satisfy you about what Ven. Nagasena meant by "nibbana does exist."
Actually, the QoKM started out as a text from a different school. Be that as it may, I am asking you, since, you quoted the text, what does "Nibbana does exist" mean? Also, the QoKM is not the suttas.
Also, as of this writing, you have refused to answer my questions about "Dhammas" and "Dhamma."
Sankhata dhammas and asankhata dhamma was discussed in that earlier quotation by Upasika Kee Nanayon, as well as in the quotation from AN 3.47.
Yes, and I showed that that did not really work for you, and you refused to engage that.
And you refuse to engage the point that cognitions, that rise and fall, are unconditioned -- asankhata -- by greed, hatred, and delusion.
I did engage that.
Well, you sort of did and I responded to that and you refuse to engage it any further. The basic point is that nibbana is not a thing and it is not a self-existent thing and it has no reality outside the arahant. In other words there is no "the Deathless" thing out there.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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