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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
danieLion
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby danieLion » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:08 am


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DarwidHalim
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:17 am

Pain or not pain really comes how we approach that event.

We can see that for someone who like to go to the beach for the sun bath.

Same event.

For this person, that experience is a joy.
For that person, that experience is a pain.

So, the key here is - it is not the event that govern someone is in pain or not. But, it is your reaction into it.

If you like that event - you say that is joy.
If you don't like that event, you say that is pain.

But,
if you have this attitude that make you see that event is not yours - you are in the state of indifferent.

You are not in joy. You are also not in pain.

This indifferent feeling for the event can rise peace and bliss.

If this is hard to be understood, you should give it a try when you experience pain in your leg during meditation. The more you can deeply realize that pain is not yours, the more you can stay friendly with that event. Because of that, you no longer can say that event as pain, because you don't see any reason to reject it, you also don't see any reason to accept it.

There is absolutely no single dot of wish to remove that sensation in your leg.
There is also absolutely no single dot of wish to accept that sensation in your leg.

It is just like that at the end.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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Spiny Norman
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:29 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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mikenz66
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:32 am


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Spiny Norman
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:33 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Spiny Norman
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:36 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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DarwidHalim
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:14 am

I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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Spiny Norman
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:54 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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DarwidHalim
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:16 pm

Such thing can be valid.

But valid for who? Dualistic (conceptual) mind like us.

They are not valid for someone who can see everything is not him or hers.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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kirk5a
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby kirk5a » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:02 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

santa100
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby santa100 » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:07 pm

porpoise wrote:
"But there is still the experience of physical pain, unpleasant vedana. Is that not dukkha?"

Technically yes, physical pain is dukkha. But then we need to ask: "Who experienced this dukkha?". For worldlings like you and me, of course the answer is: "I", "mine", "myself". For the Buddha, the answer is: "this five aggregates". And what is "this five aggregates"? Were they the "Buddha"? or they "belong to the Buddha"? or "the Buddha himself"?

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DarwidHalim
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:15 pm

I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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kirk5a
Posts: 1959
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby kirk5a » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:21 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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DarwidHalim
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:15 pm

In terms of just label - There are mental labels.

But are there any true intrinsic mental object? It is just no.

By right, you even cannot make any labels, because there is no such intrinsic thing.

However, although in reality there is no something intrinsic, there are indeed these appearance as if they are real, as if they are permanent. That something as if they are real, as if they are permanent, is the one that becomes the basis of the label for the sake of communication.

For normal being - there is findable object, so you can put label.

For enlightened being - there is never ever exist an intrinsic object you can ever find. Consequently, in this perfect seeing, they can just nakedly see Indifferently and unbiasedly.

In perfect seeing, there is no subject who see, no object to be seen, and no seeing. It is just naked like that.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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reflection
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby reflection » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:56 pm


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DarwidHalim
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:48 pm

So, according to you Buddha Is ok with all sufferings, because he bounds to final nibbana. After he pass away he will be free from body and mind.

And according to you someone who can see no self is the same thing as seeing suffering.

Then these are the main problems.

How do you free from mind (cognizance)?

What is the difference between Buddha and a statue? Statue has no mind.

If someone who can see no self can see suffering, it will be like someone who see the sky is suffering right now.

Do you think Buddha can run away from impermanence?
Do you think if you become a Buddha, after 100 years from now, you are not subject to impermanent?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby danieLion » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:10 am

Dear DarwidHalim, kirk5a, santa100 and porpoise,
Thanks for turning the topic to a focus on the relationship of vipassana to pain.

I'm hope to find time to outline my thoughts on the importance of vipassana to pain with reference to specific techniques, especially those of Ines Freedman (), along with discussing "balancing" it with samatha.

Best,
Daniel

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Aloka
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby Aloka » Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:45 am


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DarwidHalim
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:03 am

If you ask me, I don't know. I have none of that wisdom.

However, in reality there are few people can do that. Although they may not be in indifferent state.

Recently, in Iran, there was a case where this lady was thrown with acid to her face by her boyfriend. Her face is completely distorted not only her nose, but everything. The boyfriend was captured. Because iran is Muslim country, the lady can actually do the same thing to that guy. The lady can drop few drops acid into the eyes of that guy. But, she didnt do that.



This case although is very very rare, but indeed happens.

For the case where if the pain cannot occur during the accident, that one is really rare. It happens to vietnamese monk who burned himself. He was just there, and didnt move at all.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 4918
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:56 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama


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