Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Assaji
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by Assaji »

Hi Mike,
Micheal Kush wrote:For a while now, i have done my meditation consisting of intensely focusing on my nose tip for the breath to appear and touch(path of purification). So far, so good. However, ive noticed in the suttas it is never stated that one can gain absorbtion or purified concentration by focusing solely on the nose tip which seems to have a lack of presence regarding in the four tetrads.
Path of Purification requires a careful reading. It does not instruct to focus solely on the nose tip. It's essential to focus on the air touching the tip of the nose or the upper lip.

And the first stage of practice is removing the hindrances. This is described very concisely in the Path of Purification. There are some more details in the Anapanasati chapter of Patisambhidamagga:
http://www.bps.lk/olib/bp/bp502s.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta, Dmytro
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manas
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by manas »

Micheal Kush wrote:After reading the Path of Purification by Buddhaghosa mainly for the benefit of my breathinng meditation and examining the steps of breath meditation elucidated in the suttas, ive noticed some corresponding issues i wish to get clarified. For a while now, i have done my meditation consisting of intensely focusing on my nose tip for the breath to appear and touch(path of purification). So far, so good. However, ive noticed in the suttas it is never stated that one can gain absorbtion or purified concentration by focusing solely on the nose tip which seems to have a lack of presence regarding in the four tetrads.

And i have wondered, are buddhaghosas methods just an easier and elaborated way of breath meditation in the suttas or is it completely different? Does his thesis lack something that the suttas have?

I ask this primarily because recently i decided to expirement a little with my practice in spite of the struggling journey i have had with my breathing practice. When i decided to do the four tetrads, i closely followed the breath at the nose tip but also maintained the duration(long,short) and then when the feeling of bodily fabrications came, i felt this initial shock of calmness that grew with every breath, i started to question what was going on. Everytime an unpleasant feeling arose, i simply just breathed in and calmed it. After i was finished, i investigated it and felt that there must be something wrong because even though i was attuned to my breath, it wasnt fully concentrated the concentration on the breath felt muddled but i felt the joy in which the breath produced.

So are buddhaghosa practice and suttas one and the same? Or should i stick to this dofferent method?

Another reason i ask is because i hear most people say that you should just mind everything else or note it and just go back to the breath. Also, i dont wanna feel like a long enduring path of progress is washed away just because i switched methods. I have gotten fairly good at buddhaghosa technique which is why this recent expierence and examination of the texfs left me with much confusion.

Please clarify

With metta, mike
Hi Michael,

while I also like to begin with the sensation of the air as it enters & leaves the nostrils (until the mind begins to calm down a little), that location is just personal preference; no specific location for knowing that a breath is taking place is specified in the suttas, afaik. Furthermore, if we read the suttas we see that awareness is ultimately meant to expand out, to encompass the entire body:
"Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.
So this is where we are heading towards, a whole-body awareness. For this reason I think that 'sensitive to the entire body, I shall breath in...out' means just that. (This) entire body. Why? Because this is what we are heading towards, in the jhanas. And so we need to practice this, in the earlier stages, to train the mind in this ability, before jhana. imho

'He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal...There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.' I don't know how much more plainly the Buddha could spell this out.

Ok, one last thing: metta to all practitioners, sutta-ists and visuddhi-magga-ists, and those of any other school of thought; may we all attain liberation of heart-and-mind :heart:

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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reflection
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by reflection »

Micheal Kush wrote:After reading the Path of Purification by Buddhaghosa mainly for the benefit of my breathinng meditation and examining the steps of breath meditation elucidated in the suttas, ive noticed some corresponding issues i wish to get clarified. For a while now, i have done my meditation consisting of intensely focusing on my nose tip for the breath to appear and touch(path of purification). So far, so good. However, ive noticed in the suttas it is never stated that one can gain absorbtion or purified concentration by focusing solely on the nose tip which seems to have a lack of presence regarding in the four tetrads.

And i have wondered, are buddhaghosas methods just an easier and elaborated way of breath meditation in the suttas or is it completely different? Does his thesis lack something that the suttas have?

I ask this primarily because recently i decided to expirement a little with my practice in spite of the struggling journey i have had with my breathing practice. When i decided to do the four tetrads, i closely followed the breath at the nose tip but also maintained the duration(long,short) and then when the feeling of bodily fabrications came, i felt this initial shock of calmness that grew with every breath, i started to question what was going on. Everytime an unpleasant feeling arose, i simply just breathed in and calmed it. After i was finished, i investigated it and felt that there must be something wrong because even though i was attuned to my breath, it wasnt fully concentrated the concentration on the breath felt muddled but i felt the joy in which the breath produced.

So are buddhaghosa practice and suttas one and the same? Or should i stick to this dofferent method?

Another reason i ask is because i hear most people say that you should just mind everything else or note it and just go back to the breath. Also, i dont wanna feel like a long enduring path of progress is washed away just because i switched methods. I have gotten fairly good at buddhaghosa technique which is why this recent expierence and examination of the texfs left me with much confusion.

Please clarify

With metta, mike
Hi Mike

Most importantly, if you feel like you are getting more peace and happiness out of a particular meditation practice, whatever it is, I don't think you should change it. You can try other techniques just to try, especially when you get stuck, when your overall peace isn't really increasing anymore. But if you switch abruptly from one practice to the other, you could get a bit confused and lost.

I find that if I do whole body awareness and let things be, the mind will often naturally pick up the breath as it's main focus and lose the rest of the body. If I want to stay with the body, I have to force it out to get back to body awareness, by doing that disrupting the mind again. So being with just the breath is naturally more peaceful if the mind is ready for it.

That isn't to say body awareness isn't useful in itself. I do it a lot. But in my experience the mind has the natural tendency to go inward. If you read the descriptions of the jhanas you can also see how each jhana is leaving things from the previous one behind, simplifying the experience. Thus the more subtle experience is likely to be closer to jhanas. In this case, awareness on the breath (In my experience it doesn't have to be the tip of the nose per se) is more peaceful and subtle than whole body awareness. Similarly, the breath will fade out from perception leaving just the mind, which is more peaceful. As said in the Anapanasati "I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to the mind".

If you make a small step of how you read the suttas, you'll see this also described there. For one thing, the words for 'body' do not refer to just the whole physical body. It can refer to any 'collection' of things/experiences. Just like the body is a collection of all it's parts. For one example, this is literally stated in the anapanasati sutta "the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies". So at least that sutta is not about whole body awareness in my eyes. Likewise, 'body' I feel can just as well refer to only the mind in my point of view. If you loose all 5 sense perception and are left with just the mind, it can certainly really feel like a body although it isn't physical. If you get to these experiences you'll have more certainty of what road to go.

I know too little of the Visudimagga to go into your question in very much detail, but I think this division of 'sutta meditation style' and 'visudimagga meditaiton style' is more artificial than anything else. I hope the above helps a bit

With metta,
Reflection
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robertk
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by robertk »

manas wrote:
while I also like to begin with the sensation of the air as it enters & leaves the nostrils (until the mind begins to calm down a little), that location is just personal preference; no specific location for knowing that a breath is taking place is specified in the suttas, afaik. Furthermore, if we read the suttas we see that awareness is ultimately meant to expand out, to encompass the entire body:
"Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.
So this is where we are heading towards, a whole-body awareness. For this reason I think that 'sensitive to the entire body, I shall breath in...out' means just that. (This) entire body. Why? Because this is what we are heading towards, in the jhanas. And so we need to practice this, in the earlier stages, to train the mind in this ability, before jhana. imho

'He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal...There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.' I don't know how much more plainly the Buddha could spell this out.

Ok, one last thing: metta to all practitioners, sutta-ists and visuddhi-magga-ists, and those of any other school of thought; may we all attain liberation of heart-and-mind :heart:

:anjali:
Actually the body can have several meanings, such as body of cetasikas. Obviously there can be no bodily awareness in mundane jhana, that is impossible.
However rupa can be conditioned by citta and because of the sublime nature of jhana cittat the rupas conditioned by cittas are also very sublime, and this can be known once a yogi exits jhana.
robert
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manas
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by manas »

...Obviously there can be no bodily awareness in mundane jhana, that is impossible.
I hesitated to write what I wrote before, and this is why - I don't wish to argue about jhana. So: I do not agree, robert, with your statement quoted just above; but I'm bowing out of this topic now, in the interests of peace of mind. I've seen how arguments about this issue can seem to go on and on, to no conclusion, and I just don't wish to get involved in one.

much metta

manas :anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Micheal Kush
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by Micheal Kush »

Thank you all for the advice. After reviewing much what about which method to choose, i think im just gonna stick with my same routine of just attending to the breath at the nose tip. I agree with the above posts that the barricade seperating those two styles are nothing but arbitrary artifices.

Ive progressed much with this style and just need clarification. I think both methods are of immense benefit as success comes from either one. Its undeniable that the Visuudhumagga has helped many Theravada buddhists and its certain that the suttas possess the same faculty. Therefore, thanks for the immense benefit.

However i would like to point out another thing. I hear that its common amongst Vissudhimagga practitoners when they achieve jhana, that they feel detached from the body or possess no bodily awareness and the suttas obviously oppose such approach. However, i see that when pitit arises in these practitioners, they exclaim that there body is entrenched and saturated in radiating bliss. Show doesnt this necessarily show that the illustration between the Visuudhuimagga and suttas are closer in a practical view?

Though bodily awareness disspears, subjects are still succumbed to that all prevading bliss which correlates with ths suttas. Even Leigh B on his website testifies this. Just my two cents

With metta, mike
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reflection
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by reflection »

When the mind leaves the body (partially) behind, it gives the body a great opportunity to rest. I don't know why, but it seems to be resting more than when asleep even. Coming out of such meditations the body can feel extremely light as made of thin air or virtually not existing. And whenever things are gone, that's the main bliss basically. Just like it is very peaceful not to have to think, it is very peaceful not to have to worry about your body. This can explain some of the accounts of a blissful body after being detached from it.

However, again, I must emphasize that I think in the suttas 'body' refers not to just the physical body. Pali and English are quite far apart and the pali language is often translated by the interpretation of the translator's own practice, resulting in not displaying alternative interpretations. Also the meaning of pali words can be quite subtle as it seems to me. Which is only logical considering the Buddha had to explain stuff quite unsuitable to put into words. (and he spoke a slightly different dialect even, the pali language being made up afterward as far as my limited knowledge goes)

So for one thing, not everybody agrees that everywhere where 'body' is said, it is referring to the physical body, especially in the jhanas I think it refers to the mental body and I'm certainly not alone in this interpretation. For example the meaning of the word kaya, from access to insight: "kāya: Body. Usually refers to the physical body (rūpa-kāya; see rūpa), but sometimes refers to the mental body (nāma-kāya; see nāma)." So when the suttas say "There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal." it could just as well say "There is nothing of his entire mind-'body' unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal." So the suttas don't oppose having no physical awareness in jhana.

Obviously, people disagree on this and that's fine. But it's just a matter of how you read the suttas, really. They don't clearly show one interpretation to be correct versus the other. At least, not to me.

So do whatever works, don't worry too much about it not being in the suttas, or being told it isn't. At least, that's my approach to the whole thing. Suttas are a great tool, but they are just a tool. Although they can be extremely inpsiring and insightful, you have to do the work in the end and only your experience can tell what's right and what's not. If you want the text to tell you what to think, I don't want to offend anybody, but than there are better religions to consider. :tongue:

With metta,
Reflection
Micheal Kush
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by Micheal Kush »

reflection wrote:When the mind leaves the body (partially) behind, it gives the body a great opportunity to rest. I don't know why, but it seems to be resting more than when asleep even. Coming out of such meditations the body can feel extremely light as made of thin air or virtually not existing. And whenever things are gone, that's the main bliss basically. Just like it is very peaceful not to have to think, it is very peaceful not to have to worry about your body. This can explain some of the accounts of a blissful body after being detached from it.

However, again, I must emphasize that I think in the suttas 'body' refers not to just the physical body. Pali and English are quite far apart and the pali language is often translated by the interpretation of the translator's own practice, resulting in not displaying alternative interpretations. Also the meaning of pali words can be quite subtle as it seems to me. Which is only logical considering the Buddha had to explain stuff quite unsuitable to put into words. (and he spoke a slightly different dialect even, the pali language being made up afterward as far as my limited knowledge goes)

So for one thing, not everybody agrees that everywhere where 'body' is said, it is referring to the physical body, especially in the jhanas I think it refers to the mental body and I'm certainly not alone in this interpretation. For example the meaning of the word kaya, from access to insight: "kāya: Body. Usually refers to the physical body (rūpa-kāya; see rūpa), but sometimes refers to the mental body (nāma-kāya; see nāma)." So when the suttas say "There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal." it could just as well say "There is nothing of his entire mind-'body' unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal." So the suttas don't oppose having no physical awareness in jhana.

Obviously, people disagree on this and that's fine. But it's just a matter of how you read the suttas, really. They don't clearly show one interpretation to be correct versus the other. At least, not to me.

So do whatever works, don't worry too much about it not being in the suttas, or being told it isn't. At least, that's my approach to the whole thing. Suttas are a great tool, but they are just a tool. Although they can be extremely inpsiring and insightful, you have to do the work in the end and only your experience can tell what's right and what's not. If you want the text to tell you what to think, I don't want to offend anybody, but than there are better religions to consider. :tongue:

With metta,
Reflection
Thanks for the information. I agree that the barriers and disagreements are nothing but mere speculation and useless worth. I mean if you think about it, both styles of methods are continously being proven to work so i do agree that there are various interpretations regarding what the jhanas are but disputing it hinders the utilization of what you said, as a tool. However, regarding your post above what is the mind body? Is it the mind itself or what the suttas state of the mind made body?

All in all, i will continue to practice and see what factors equate with truth and the main purpose is to use this sagacious concentration as a tool for cultivating insight.

Thanks for the advice

With metta, mike
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marc108
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by marc108 »

i really believe that where you focus makes no difference. some teachers, re: Ajahn Brahm, are teaching disembodied type Jhana withing even using any physical location at all... simply the mental occurrence of the breath. when i asked my teacher about what was the best spot to focus, he said people have achieved the highest levels of Jhana using all the various spots so it doesnt matter.

i think what matters more is what you DO once some Samadhi has been established & what direction you take the meditation. if you are at the point where you are able to get into Jhana, or close to it... you should just experiment with both ways. you can take the bliss that arises at the nose tip and 'breath' it through the body, re: the Jhana similes in the Suttas or you can clamp down on the nose and after a few hours a nimitta will arise and you can work with that.

speculation is absolutely pointless... you have to find a teacher who will teach you the method and find out for yourself.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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reflection
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by reflection »

Micheal Kush wrote:Thanks for the information. I agree that the barriers and disagreements are nothing but mere speculation and useless worth. I mean if you think about it, both styles of methods are continously being proven to work so i do agree that there are various interpretations regarding what the jhanas are but disputing it hinders the utilization of what you said, as a tool. However, regarding your post above what is the mind body? Is it the mind itself or what the suttas state of the mind made body?

All in all, i will continue to practice and see what factors equate with truth and the main purpose is to use this sagacious concentration as a tool for cultivating insight.

Thanks for the advice

With metta, mike
You are welcome. Have a nice time practicing!

The mind is not really a thing in itself for it is changing all the time. So it's a bit tricky to call something "the mind". But the mental phenomena can certainly represent themselves as being a body-ish thing. Quite hard to explain really. But consider the pali-text-society dictionary translation for the word kaya, approaching it from a different angle to make things perhaps more clear:

Kāya [der. probably fr. ci, cinoti to heap up, cp. nikāya heaping up, accumulation or collection; Sk. kāya] group, heap, collection, aggregate, body. -- Definitions and synonyms.

Which is also interesting is looking at a possible translation for 'body' in an English dictionary: "a group of persons or things".

So it's a collection, really. That could in case of the 'body' as in the first parts of the anapanasati sutta be all things concerning the breath, so sometimes it's translated there as breath-body instead of just 'body'. (so breath-body being for example the sensations around the nose or abdomen or wherever) In case of the mind that could refer to a collection of all mental phenomena going on at that particular time. So not a fixed thing, really. And that 'collection' will change as things are left behind, which is why I think the word kaya is especially beautiful and well chosen because it is not a fixed set of things.

Ok I am going quite the pali explanation way now, which is not my usual approach, so pardon me if things are not really clear. If you want things to be a bit more clear, I can certainly advise to find some sutta explanations by Ajahn Brahmali. You can find some on the youtube. I haven't watched them all, so I can't say I agree with everything he says, and perhaps you won't. But at least it'll give you another possible interpretation of things, especially of meditation as described in the suttas not clearly being about full body awareness always.

With metta,
Reflection
Micheal Kush
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by Micheal Kush »

marc108 wrote:i really believe that where you focus makes no difference. some teachers, re: Ajahn Brahm, are teaching disembodied type Jhana withing even using any physical location at all... simply the mental occurrence of the breath. when i asked my teacher about what was the best spot to focus, he said people have achieved the highest levels of Jhana using all the various spots so it doesnt matter.

i think what matters more is what you DO once some Samadhi has been established & what direction you take the meditation. if you are at the point where you are able to get into Jhana, or close to it... you should just experiment with both ways. you can take the bliss that arises at the nose tip and 'breath' it through the body, re: the Jhana similes in the Suttas or you can clamp down on the nose and after a few hours a nimitta will arise and you can work with that.

speculation is absolutely pointless... you have to find a teacher who will teach you the method and find out for yourself.
Agreed. I will continue to persist in my practice and if the time is right, after i reach a level of jhana i might expirement with the other methods as well. Now as for a teacher.......that will be a difficult task for me considering there are but few teachrs in my area but ill check it out.

And @ Reflection, the pali was helpful. I, too have heard the explanations regarding the body breath and certianly elaborates on various translations.

Anways thanks again.
With metta, mike
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marc108
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by marc108 »

Micheal Kush wrote: Now as for a teacher.......that will be a difficult task for me considering there are but few teachrs in my area but ill check it out.
just fyi... Thanissaro Bhikkhu and Richard Shankman, both great meditation masters, will give interviews by phone.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
Micheal Kush
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by Micheal Kush »

marc108 wrote:
Micheal Kush wrote: Now as for a teacher.......that will be a difficult task for me considering there are but few teachrs in my area but ill check it out.
just fyi... Thanissaro Bhikkhu and Richard Shankman, both great meditation masters, will give interviews by phone.
Awesome suggestionn. I always revered Thanissaro teachings. One more question though, and this concerns the in-breathing. Now when they say focus on the in breathing, do you they mean maintain awareness of the breathing when it also enters in through the nostrils or just remain solely on the nose tip of where the breathing strikes?
Btw, where and how can i contact those two meditation masters?

With metta,mike
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

Micheal Kush wrote: Awesome suggestionn. I always revered Thanissaro teachings. One more question though, and this concerns the in-breathing. Now when they say focus on the in breathing, do you they mean maintain awareness of the breathing when it also enters in through the nostrils or just remain solely on the nose tip of where the breathing strikes?
Btw, where and how can i contact those two meditation masters?

With metta,mike
http://www.watmetta.org/contact.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I usually interpret such instruction to mean "Examine the breath itself as in enters and exits through the nose tip," not "keep your attention directly on the nose tip itself." It's important, as concentration gets deeper, to leave the physical sensation and go along with the in-and-out breath, free of a physical base. Just like you need to use your fingers to balance a nail in a wall, but can let go and just pound it in after a short few whacks, you need to let the sensation guide you until you're established enough with the breath to watch it freely.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
Micheal Kush
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Re: Buddhaghosa Path of Purification vs Suttas?

Post by Micheal Kush »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
Micheal Kush wrote: Awesome suggestionn. I always revered Thanissaro teachings. One more question though, and this concerns the in-breathing. Now when they say focus on the in breathing, do you they mean maintain awareness of the breathing when it also enters in through the nostrils or just remain solely on the nose tip of where the breathing strikes?
Btw, where and how can i contact those two meditation masters?

With metta,mike
http://www.watmetta.org/contact.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I usually interpret such instruction to mean "Examine the breath itself as in enters and exits through the nose tip," not "keep your attention directly on the nose tip itself." It's important, as concentration gets deeper, to leave the physical sensation and go along with the in-and-out breath, free of a physical base. Just like you need to use your fingers to balance a nail in a wall, but can let go and just pound it in after a short few whacks, you need to let the sensation guide you until you're established enough with the breath to watch it freely.
Ok yes thats what i thought to. At first when reading instructions of meditation, the number rule was just keep your attention of the breathing spot. Then i started to wonder how one can follow the in breathing by just keeping their attention only on the nose tip without examining it when it comes in.

Thank you for the clarification
With metta, mike
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