Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
santa100
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by santa100 »

porpoise wrote:
"But there is still the experience of physical pain, unpleasant vedana. Is that not dukkha?"

Technically yes, physical pain is dukkha. But then we need to ask: "Who experienced this dukkha?". For worldlings like you and me, of course the answer is: "I", "mine", "myself". For the Buddha, the answer is: "this five aggregates". And what is "this five aggregates"? Were they the "Buddha"? or they "belong to the Buddha"? or "the Buddha himself"?
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DarwidHalim
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by DarwidHalim »

kirk5a wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote: They are just sensation that you label as pain.

In reality, it is just sensation. Nothing more, nothing less.
"Sensation" is also a label.
Absolutely.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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kirk5a
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by kirk5a »

DarwidHalim wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote: They are just sensation that you label as pain.

In reality, it is just sensation. Nothing more, nothing less.
"Sensation" is also a label.
Absolutely.
So in reality, there are mental labels along with what is labeled.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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DarwidHalim
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by DarwidHalim »

In terms of just label - There are mental labels.

But are there any true intrinsic mental object? It is just no.

By right, you even cannot make any labels, because there is no such intrinsic thing.

However, although in reality there is no something intrinsic, there are indeed these appearance as if they are real, as if they are permanent. That something as if they are real, as if they are permanent, is the one that becomes the basis of the label for the sake of communication.

For normal being - there is findable object, so you can put label.

For enlightened being - there is never ever exist an intrinsic object you can ever find. Consequently, in this perfect seeing, they can just nakedly see Indifferently and unbiasedly.

In perfect seeing, there is no subject who see, no object to be seen, and no seeing. It is just naked like that.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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reflection
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by reflection »

Seeing things as non self is the same as seeing things as suffering. One is enclosed within one another. It's not like if you see things as non-self, suddenly it isn't suffering anymore. No! It's the other way around. It's exactly because of non-self that there is suffering. Understanding one is understanding the other. And is also understanding impermanence.

From the sutta on non-self:
"What do you think, monks — Is form constant or inconstant?"
"Inconstant, lord."
"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"
"Stressful, lord."
"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"
"No, lord."
(same for the other aggregates)
"Any kind of form/feeling/perception/determination/consciousness whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.'

"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling, he finds estrangement in perception, he finds estrangement in determinations, he finds estrangement in consciousness.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And elsewhere in the suttas:
He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self.
I could probably make an entire book with connected quotes. For example how aging and sickness are suffering. So did the Buddha still suffer? Yes, he did. A body is just one big piece of suffering. But that's ok for him, because he was bound for final nibbana, the end of body and mind and thus all suffering. No more work to be done.

With metta,
Reflection
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DarwidHalim
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by DarwidHalim »

So, according to you Buddha Is ok with all sufferings, because he bounds to final nibbana. After he pass away he will be free from body and mind.

And according to you someone who can see no self is the same thing as seeing suffering.

Then these are the main problems.

How do you free from mind (cognizance)?

What is the difference between Buddha and a statue? Statue has no mind.

If someone who can see no self can see suffering, it will be like someone who see the sky is suffering right now.

Do you think Buddha can run away from impermanence?
Do you think if you become a Buddha, after 100 years from now, you are not subject to impermanent?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
danieLion
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by danieLion »

Dear DarwidHalim, kirk5a, santa100 and porpoise,
Thanks for turning the topic to a focus on the relationship of vipassana to pain.

I'm hope to find time to outline my thoughts on the importance of vipassana to pain with reference to specific techniques, especially those of Ines Freedman (here), along with discussing "balancing" it with samatha.

Best,
Daniel
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Aloka
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by Aloka »

DarwidHalim wrote:So, the key here is - it is not the event that govern someone is in pain or not. But, it is your reaction into it.

If you like that event - you say that is joy.
If you don't like that event, you say that is pain.

But,
if you have this attitude that make you see that event is not yours - you are in the state of indifferent.

So in that case would you still be in a state of indifference if someone had unexpectedly shot you at close range in the face and blown one of your eyes and your nose away ?
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DarwidHalim
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by DarwidHalim »

If you ask me, I don't know. I have none of that wisdom.

However, in reality there are few people can do that. Although they may not be in indifferent state.

Recently, in Iran, there was a case where this lady was thrown with acid to her face by her boyfriend. Her face is completely distorted not only her nose, but everything. The boyfriend was captured. Because iran is Muslim country, the lady can actually do the same thing to that guy. The lady can drop few drops acid into the eyes of that guy. But, she didnt do that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14357261

This case although is very very rare, but indeed happens.

For the case where if the pain cannot occur during the accident, that one is really rare. It happens to vietnamese monk who burned himself. He was just there, and didnt move at all.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
Spiny Norman
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by Spiny Norman »

reflection wrote:Seeing things as non self is the same as seeing things as suffering. One is enclosed within one another. It's not like if you see things as non-self, suddenly it isn't suffering anymore. No! It's the other way around. It's exactly because of non-self that there is suffering. Understanding one is understanding the other. And is also understanding impermanence.
"Any kind of form/feeling/perception/determination/consciousness whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.'

"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling, he finds estrangement in perception, he finds estrangement in determinations, he finds estrangement in consciousness.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. Yes, the aggregates are unsatisfactory and not fit to be "owned", but this seems to me more like a response to the second Noble Truth, ie the cause of suffering is grasping at the aggregates.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by Spiny Norman »

DarwidHalim wrote:In terms of just label - There are mental labels.
But are there any true intrinsic mental object? It is just no.
But there are pain receptors in the skin which produce the sensation of physical pain. And it seems to me that this is experienced as physical pain regardless of whether or not we give it a label. You can tell when an animal's in pain, they don't need to verbalise it.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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reflection
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by reflection »

porpoise wrote:
reflection wrote:Seeing things as non self is the same as seeing things as suffering. One is enclosed within one another. It's not like if you see things as non-self, suddenly it isn't suffering anymore. No! It's the other way around. It's exactly because of non-self that there is suffering. Understanding one is understanding the other. And is also understanding impermanence.
"Any kind of form/feeling/perception/determination/consciousness whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.'

"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling, he finds estrangement in perception, he finds estrangement in determinations, he finds estrangement in consciousness.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. Yes, the aggregates are unsatisfactory and not fit to be "owned", but this seems to me more like a response to the second Noble Truth, ie the cause of suffering is grasping at the aggregates.
The aggregates are non-self, you can't control them. You can't say 'let it be like this' or 'let it not be like this'. You can't have your body be healthy when you want it, and you can't have your feeling/perception/volition/consciousness change as you want it. This means these things are not suitable to give lasting happiness. And that's why they are suffering.

Other way around, if things were 'self' you could change them to be non-suffering. In the end, it's 'you' so you can change it however you want, right? Would be quite a silly 'self' otherwise. But it is not like this.

So coming back to the pain thing. If you can see your body as non-self, you see the entire body is suffering/unsatisfying even if there is no pain. Why is it like this? Because it is inconstant, non-self. There is no happiness to be found in it. And if it isn't painful now, it surely will be in the future. So in that sense it's suffering already. It's like eating a meal you know will make you sick: nomatter what it tastes like, you can't enjoy it.

So non-self and suffering are virtually the same. Of course with the exception of nibbana which is not-self and not suffering. But it is the highest happiness because it is beyond the aggregates. That's why the sutta says "when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in [the aggregates]". He knows there is no happiness in the aggregates which will lead to cessation of them eventually.

With metta,
Reflection
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DarwidHalim
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by DarwidHalim »

porpoise wrote: But there are pain receptors in the skin which produce the sensation of physical pain. And it seems to me that this is experienced as physical pain regardless of whether or not we give it a label. You can tell when an animal's in pain, they don't need to verbalise it.
In reality this is what happen.

But there are sensation receptors in the skin which produce the sensation of physical sensation. And it seems to me that this is experienced as physical sensation regardless of whether or not we give it any labels.

You can't use animal as an example - because animal doesn't have ability to analysis in deep. Even if they have, it is very shallow. Animal has this very thick ignorance due to his karma.

If you want to use, use yogic example.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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DarwidHalim
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by DarwidHalim »

Reflection,

It is in this impermanence, ignorance people suffer, because what is not there is seen as there.

Ironically,

It is in this impermanence as well, people enlighten, because what is not there is seen as not there.

Have you ever wonder how can a yogic walk through the wall?

One of the yogic said this:

You make thing solid not because it is actually solid.
It is solid because you conceptually make it solid and you believe so.

Siddharta Gautama can walk through the wall, walk through anything, even when his aggregate is there.

We think he has aggregate because he has this bloody and meaty bone.
That is what we think.
But do you think he also think in this way? It is just no.

If you think this aggregate is solid and becomes the source of suffering, you will get what you think.

But if you can see the nature of your aggregate and can see everything as just process, you will just be able to see everything indeed cannot be mine and no point to make everything as personal because those intrinsic things just cant be found.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Aloka
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Post by Aloka »

DarwidHalim wrote:Siddharta Gautama can walk through the wall, walk through anything, even when his aggregate is there.
Could you provide some sutta quotes of the Buddha walking through walls, please Darwid ?
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