SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Post by Cittasanto »

an interesting paper regarding this threefold suffering
http://elte.academia.edu/FerencRuzsa/Pa ... Pali_Canon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

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"Monks, there are these three kinds of discontentment .[1] What three? Discontentment caused by pain,[2] discontentment caused by the formations (or conditioned existence),[3] discontentment due to change.[4] It is for the full comprehension, clear understanding, ending and abandonment of these three forms of discontentment that the Noble Eightfold Path is to be cultivated..."


Noun 1. discontentment - a longing for something better than the present situation
discontent, discontentedness
longing, yearning, hungriness - prolonged unfulfilled desire or need
disgruntlement - a feeling of sulky discontent
dysphoria - abnormal depression and discontent
dissatisfaction - the feeling of being displeased and discontent; "he was never slow to express his dissatisfaction with the service he received"


contentment - happiness with one's situation in life
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Pegembara,

I'm not clear of your point. Are you simply saying that you'd prefer to translate dukkha as "discontentment"?

:anjali:
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Post by Spiny Norman »

Sam Vega wrote:I think it makes more sense, though, to think of it as the "dukkha of pain", the "dukkha of declinability/change", and the "dukkha of sankharas". This gives the sense of three types of "wrongness" that afflict our experience.
Yes, I was thinking about the dukkha of pain, loss and uncertainty respectively. The loss of the pleasant, and the uncertainty of our conditioned existence.
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

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Sam Vega wrote: But Sankhara-Dukkhata seems to be the more important, as it underlies and conditions all our experience, whether or not physical and mental pain are actually present.
Yes, I think that's why this type of dukkha is associated with neutral feeling. Because our existence and experience is conditioned and uncertain, neutral feeling will inevitably "tip over", either into pleasant feeling ( cue the suffering of change ie loss of pleasant feeling ) or into unpleasant feeling ( cue the "ordinary" suffering of pain ).
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

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porpoise wrote:
Sam Vega wrote: But Sankhara-Dukkhata seems to be the more important, as it underlies and conditions all our experience, whether or not physical and mental pain are actually present.
Yes, I think that's why this type of dukkha is associated with neutral feeling. Because our existence and experience is conditioned and uncertain, neutral feeling will inevitably "tip over", either into pleasant feeling ( cue the suffering of change ie loss of pleasant feeling ) or into unpleasant feeling ( cue the "ordinary" suffering of pain ).
I think Sankhara-Dukkhata is of wider significance than this, although you are undoubtedly correct to say that it refers to neutral feelings and to point out that such feelings pass away and become something which frequently is worse. But if that is all it is, then it could be considered as a form of Viparinama-Dukkhata. Stuff changes, we can't rely on it not hurting us. Existentially, there is a wider problem than the hedonic tone of our experiences, and this is captured in the "wrongness" of our being conditioned entities. Sankharas "put us together", so to speak, and reconstitute our existence as apparently separate beings with insatiable appetites. Ajahn Sucitto is very good on this aspect of Dhamma, and the audio link given by Mike above is well worth spending 50 minutes on.
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Post by Caraka »

Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish
Dukkha-Dukkhataa for oneself arise, fade, and change to something else. Maybe into a neutral feeling? But most likely into a sense of relief, if one consider e.g. pain as a starting point. But in the context of not self it seems like Dhukka-Dukkhata have an more static (constant) attribute the others don't, and seems to depend on Sankhara-Dukkhataa or Vipariṇāma-Dukkhataa as underlying factors. Or does it not?
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

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mikenz66 wrote: 1. Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.
2. Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change"
3. Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena". This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling.
So which of these 3 types of dukkha is alleviated by developing insight?
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

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porpoise wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: 1. Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.
2. Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change"
3. Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena". This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling.
So which of these 3 types of dukkha is alleviated by developing insight?
Hi porpoise,

I think they all are. In the Saccasamyutta section of the Samyutta Nikaya (i.e. the section that deals specifically with the Four Noble Truths, the first of which is the truth of Dukkha) there are many exhortations to develop understanding of Dukkha, but the types of Dukkha are not differentiated as per SN 45.165.

But there are many references to the first Noble Truth being fully understood,which I think is indicative that whatever one is urged to do in order to develop the understanding, is fully effective. Sometimes one is urged to develop concentration, and sometimes one is urged to develop seclusion. (There is nothing specific about how to develop insight, but I think that this is another term for the "understanding" of the Noble Truths.)

SN 56.29, for example, has
Of these Four Noble Truths, Bhikkhus, there is a noble truth that is to be fully understood...And what, Bhikkhus, is the noble truth that is to be fully understood? The noble truth of suffering is to be fully understood...
And SN 56 24:
Whatever Arahants, Perfectly Enlightened Ones, fully awakened...will fully awaken...have fully awakened to things as they really are, all have fully awakened to these Four Noble Truths as they really are.
So I think the fact that the truth is to be "fully understood" and that Arahants "fully awaken" is indicative that insight into this truth is complete and undifferentiated.
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

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Sam Vega wrote:
porpoise wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: 1. Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.
2. Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change"
3. Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena". This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling.
So which of these 3 types of dukkha is alleviated by developing insight?
Hi porpoise,

I think they all are. In the Saccasamyutta section of the Samyutta Nikaya (i.e. the section that deals specifically with the Four Noble Truths, the first of which is the truth of Dukkha) there are many exhortations to develop understanding of Dukkha, but the types of Dukkha are not differentiated as per SN 45.165.
I agree that insight into dukkha is essential, but I was asking which types of dukkka are alleviated by such insight. Or to ask the question another way, which of these 3 types of dukkha cease as a result of insight?
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Post by Caraka »

I agree that insight into dukkha is essential, but I was asking which types of dukkka are alleviated by such insight. Or to ask the question another way, which of these 3 types of dukkha cease as a result of insight?
Yes, good question. Cause for me it seems like the word dukkhataa not necessarily indicates oneself.
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Post by Sam Vara »

Caraka wrote:
I agree that insight into dukkha is essential, but I was asking which types of dukkka are alleviated by such insight. Or to ask the question another way, which of these 3 types of dukkha cease as a result of insight?
Yes, good question. Cause for me it seems like the word dukkhataa not necessarily indicates oneself.
I think that as far as the suttas dealing with Dukkha are concerned, the clear inference is that all three types of Dukkha cease. But the sensible thing would be to work on the insight and find out for oneself.

The word dukhata is the abstract noun for the state of suffering

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http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Dukkhata
so it definitely does not indicate oneself, but includes it.
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

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porpoise wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: 1. Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.
2. Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change"
3. Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena". This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling.
So which of these 3 types of dukkha is alleviated by developing insight?
the latter two in your list.
the first is the first dart the latter seam to me to be sebsequent dart(s)
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Post by Caraka »

Thanks for sharing resources with me :namaste:

The approach I try to crasp the use of logic in the writing, without thinking which insight, Dhamma or what it could mean for oneself.

Logically one can look upon what happens for all, one individual isolated, or both those included. Already this discrimination imply different attributes for each of the dukkhataa. And I think time is always a logic factor, even if its not relevant in the big picture, it is always relevant in a pedagogic way of teaching. One can also assume that the teaching, ie. the chosen way of writing, are quite similar for many suttas. Interesting indeed.


What is dart(s)?
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Post by Spiny Norman »

Cittasanto wrote:
porpoise wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: 1. Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.
2. Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change"
3. Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena". This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling.
So which of these 3 types of dukkha is alleviated by developing insight?
the latter two in your list.
the first is the first dart the latter seam to me to be sebsequent dart(s)
That's what I assumed, but I'm now wondering whether first dart is the physical pain of dukkha-dukkhataa, with the second dart being the mental pain of dukkha-dukkhataa?
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