Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3162
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:02 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:In terms of just label - There are mental labels.
But are there any true intrinsic mental object? It is just no.


But there are pain receptors in the skin which produce the sensation of physical pain. And it seems to me that this is experienced as physical pain regardless of whether or not we give it a label. You can tell when an animal's in pain, they don't need to verbalise it.
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric

User avatar
reflection
Posts: 1115
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby reflection » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:21 pm

porpoise wrote:
reflection wrote:Seeing things as non self is the same as seeing things as suffering. One is enclosed within one another. It's not like if you see things as non-self, suddenly it isn't suffering anymore. No! It's the other way around. It's exactly because of non-self that there is suffering. Understanding one is understanding the other. And is also understanding impermanence.

"Any kind of form/feeling/perception/determination/consciousness whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.'

"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling, he finds estrangement in perception, he finds estrangement in determinations, he finds estrangement in consciousness.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html




I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. Yes, the aggregates are unsatisfactory and not fit to be "owned", but this seems to me more like a response to the second Noble Truth, ie the cause of suffering is grasping at the aggregates.

The aggregates are non-self, you can't control them. You can't say 'let it be like this' or 'let it not be like this'. You can't have your body be healthy when you want it, and you can't have your feeling/perception/volition/consciousness change as you want it. This means these things are not suitable to give lasting happiness. And that's why they are suffering.

Other way around, if things were 'self' you could change them to be non-suffering. In the end, it's 'you' so you can change it however you want, right? Would be quite a silly 'self' otherwise. But it is not like this.

So coming back to the pain thing. If you can see your body as non-self, you see the entire body is suffering/unsatisfying even if there is no pain. Why is it like this? Because it is inconstant, non-self. There is no happiness to be found in it. And if it isn't painful now, it surely will be in the future. So in that sense it's suffering already. It's like eating a meal you know will make you sick: nomatter what it tastes like, you can't enjoy it.

So non-self and suffering are virtually the same. Of course with the exception of nibbana which is not-self and not suffering. But it is the highest happiness because it is beyond the aggregates. That's why the sutta says "when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in [the aggregates]". He knows there is no happiness in the aggregates which will lead to cessation of them eventually.

With metta,
Reflection

User avatar
DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:58 pm

porpoise wrote:But there are pain receptors in the skin which produce the sensation of physical pain. And it seems to me that this is experienced as physical pain regardless of whether or not we give it a label. You can tell when an animal's in pain, they don't need to verbalise it.


In reality this is what happen.

But there are sensation receptors in the skin which produce the sensation of physical sensation. And it seems to me that this is experienced as physical sensation regardless of whether or not we give it any labels.

You can't use animal as an example - because animal doesn't have ability to analysis in deep. Even if they have, it is very shallow. Animal has this very thick ignorance due to his karma.

If you want to use, use yogic example.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

User avatar
DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:03 pm

Reflection,

It is in this impermanence, ignorance people suffer, because what is not there is seen as there.

Ironically,

It is in this impermanence as well, people enlighten, because what is not there is seen as not there.

Have you ever wonder how can a yogic walk through the wall?

One of the yogic said this:

You make thing solid not because it is actually solid.
It is solid because you conceptually make it solid and you believe so.

Siddharta Gautama can walk through the wall, walk through anything, even when his aggregate is there.

We think he has aggregate because he has this bloody and meaty bone.
That is what we think.
But do you think he also think in this way? It is just no.

If you think this aggregate is solid and becomes the source of suffering, you will get what you think.

But if you can see the nature of your aggregate and can see everything as just process, you will just be able to see everything indeed cannot be mine and no point to make everything as personal because those intrinsic things just cant be found.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 3813
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby Aloka » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:25 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:Siddharta Gautama can walk through the wall, walk through anything, even when his aggregate is there.


Could you provide some sutta quotes of the Buddha walking through walls, please Darwid ?

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 10782
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: New Zealand

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:17 pm

Aloka wrote:Could you provide some sutta quotes of the Buddha walking through walls, please Darwid ?

There are plenty of those:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html
6. "And he will never infer of me according to Dhamma: 'That Blessed One enjoys the various kinds of supernormal power: having been one, he becomes many; having been many, he becomes one; he appears and vanishes; he goes unhindered through a wall, through an enclosure, through a mountain, as though through space; he dives in and out of the earth as though it were water; he walks on water without sinking as though it were earth; seated cross-legged, he travels in space like a bird; with his hand he touches and strokes the moon and sun so powerful and mighty; he wields bodily mastery even as far as the Brahma-world.'

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 3813
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby Aloka » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:29 pm

Thanks Mike. I'd forgotten all about about that part of MN12 ! Are there a couple more references you could give me if its not too much trouble, please ? I need to start keeping my own reference list of the contents of some of the suttas.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 10782
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: New Zealand

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:34 pm

Hi Aloka, you can just google:
site:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka "becomes many"

to find that passage in the suttas available on ATI:

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=site% ... 89&bih=647

:anjali:
Mike

danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby danieLion » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:52 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:So, the key here is - it is not the event that govern someone is in pain or not. But, it is your reaction into it.

Hi DarwidHalim,
Be careful. This can all too easily turn into victim blaming and/or "karmic retribution" nonsense.
Best,
Daniel
Last edited by danieLion on Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 10782
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: New Zealand

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:56 pm

danieLion wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:So, the key here is - it is not the event that govern someone is in pain or not. But, it is your reaction into it.

Hi DarwidHalim,
Be careful. This can all too easily turn into victim blaming and/or "karmic retribution" nonsense.
Best,
Daniel

I don't see victim-blaming here. The Buddha seems quite clear about the effects of actions and reactions:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows; in the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental.

http://www.vipassana.com/canon/majjhima/mn149.php
The Blessed One said: "Not knowing, not seeing the eye as it actually is present; not knowing, not seeing forms...consciousness at the eye...contact at the eye as they actually are present; not knowing, not seeing whatever arises conditioned through contact at the eye -- experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- as it actually is present, one is infatuated with the eye...forms...consciousness at the eye...contact at the eye...whatever arises conditioned by contact at the eye and is experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain.

"For him -- infatuated, attached, confused, not remaining focused on their drawbacks -- the five aggregates for sustenance head toward future accumulation. The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that -- grows within him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances grow. His bodily torments & mental torments grow. His bodily distresses & mental distresses grow. He is sensitive both to bodily stress & mental stress.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"There are these five facts that one should reflect on often,...
"'I am the owner of my actions,[kamma] heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.' ...

:anjali:
Mike

danieLion
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:49 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby danieLion » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:02 am

mikenz66 wrote:
danieLion wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:So, the key here is - it is not the event that govern someone is in pain or not. But, it is your reaction into it.

Hi DarwidHalim,
Be careful. This can all too easily turn into victim blaming and/or "karmic retribution" nonsense.
Best,
Daniel

I don't see victim-blaming here. The Buddha seems quite clear about the effects of actions and reactions:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows; in the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental.

http://www.vipassana.com/canon/majjhima/mn149.php
The Blessed One said: "Not knowing, not seeing the eye as it actually is present; not knowing, not seeing forms...consciousness at the eye...contact at the eye as they actually are present; not knowing, not seeing whatever arises conditioned through contact at the eye -- experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- as it actually is present, one is infatuated with the eye...forms...consciousness at the eye...contact at the eye...whatever arises conditioned by contact at the eye and is experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain.

"For him -- infatuated, attached, confused, not remaining focused on their drawbacks -- the five aggregates for sustenance head toward future accumulation. The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that -- grows within him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances grow. His bodily torments & mental torments grow. His bodily distresses & mental distresses grow. He is sensitive both to bodily stress & mental stress.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"There are these five facts that one should reflect on often,...
"'I am the owner of my actions,[kamma] heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.' ...

:anjali:
Mike

Hi Mike,
I think you completely misunderstood me.

I was agreeing with the point I think Aloka was trying to make.

Aloka wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:So, the key here is - it is not the event that govern someone is in pain or not. But, it is your reaction into it.

If you like that event - you say that is joy.
If you don't like that event, you say that is pain.

But,
if you have this attitude that make you see that event is not yours - you are in the state of indifferent.



So in that case would you still be in a state of indifference if someone had unexpectedly shot you at close range in the face and blown one of your eyes and your nose away?


When the Buddha cut his foot, he still used words to describe his post-arahant-attainment experience of painful feeling.

I'm not dismissing kamma but warning of the dangers of distorting the doctrine by attributing the effects of samsara to individuals and by trying to tie the Buddha's notions of kamma to western notions of retributive justice. It's dangerous because it reifies right understanding at the expense of good-will and compassion.

Would you tell someone dying of cancer that if they'd just realize their pain is the result of their past actions, including previous lives, that everything will be okay?

Would you tell someone dying of cancer that their pain's just a mental label and once they realize that it'll all be better?

That's some nonsense, is it not?

Best,
Daniel

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 10782
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: New Zealand

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:45 am

Hi Daniel,

I was simply taking the statement you quoted at face value:
So, the key here is - it is not the event that govern someone is in pain or not. But, it is your reaction into it.

I didn't see what that had to do with victim blaming. It is, of course, arguable whether an arahant is able to be free from pain --- that's what this thread is about, isn't it?

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:26 am

danieLion wrote:Would you tell someone dying of cancer that their pain's just a mental label and once they realize that it'll all be better?
That's some nonsense, is it not?


Of course, it is a nonsense if you talk to someone dying of cancer that their pain's just a mental label and once they realize that it'll all be better.

But, do you know why it is nonsense?
It is because you ask the wrong person who for the rest of his life, he never ever see reality as JUST what they are. You ask the person who is confused what is not there as there.

We must have this conviction that this universe, this reality, DOES NOT have an INTRINSIC character. There is nothing in this universe has something intrinsic.

There is no character.

For anyone who cannot see precisely that this universe doesn't have characteristic, it is forever for them, they will confuse what is not there, as this or as that or not as this, or not as this. They will confuse what is not there, as pain, not as pain, as joy, not as joy, or half pain half joy, whatever.

I believe, you will not believe me this.

Let's prove this:
PROVE THAT THIS UNIVERSE DOESN'T HAVE INTRINSIC VALUE - DOESN"T HAVE ANY CHARACTER

See this line:
__________ Versus ____________________
At this instant, we will suddenly jump the gun and say red line is SHORTER than blue line.
This is instinct coming straight away from us. - THIS SHORT IS THE CHARACTERISTIC OF THIS RED LINE
We absolutely believe this without any question.

See this line:
__________ Versus _____
At this instant, we will suddenly as well jump the gun and say red line is LONGER than green line.
This is also instinct coming straight away from us. - THIS LONG IS THE CHARACTERISTIC OF THIS RED LINE
Absolutely no question.

See this line:
__________ Versus __________
At this instant, we also straight away jump the gun and say this red line is same with yellow line.
This is also instinct coming straight away from us - THIS NOT LONG & NOT SHORT IS THE CHARACTERISTIC OF THIS RED LINE.
Absolutely no question.

Up to this point. Can you see why Buddha say we are confuse being?
That very simple example actually show us we confuse something is not there as there.

What is that?
We confuse that there is this INTRINSIC character in the line.

In reality, This red line doesn't have any value. It doesn't have any character.
But we cannot see that.

It is very very crucial to know precisely that everything in this universe doesn't have any character.

If this red line has an intrinsic character, let's say long.

When you compare
__________ Versus ____________________
The red line MUST BE long, because red line has character.

When you compare
__________ Versus __________
The red line must be long, because red line has character.

But, if you say line has character, how can the red line character from long becomes short, long become same??

Have we ever ask this in our life?
Can you see why we are said confused being? Because what is not there is seen as there. What is not there is confuse as there.

Because the red line DOESN"T HAVE INTRINSIC CHARACTER, that is why you can see this as long, as short, as same, depending on the perspective you want to take.

MN152 - Indriya Bhavana said this very clearly.
In that sutta, this word is repeated many many times;
If he wants, if he wants, if he wants.

See this turning motion in your head.
If you want, you can see that as headache, as pain.
If you want, you can see that as time to dance, as joy.

In the disco place, the more you feel the turning motion in your head, the more you are joyfully dance.

In any event, you have UNLIMITED WAY of seeing - as you wish and if you want.

If this universe has intrinsic character, the red line will be always always long, no matter how you compare it.
If this universe has intrinsic character, the turning motion in your head will always always pain, no matter how you compare it.

But, that is not the case.
This reality is we know how to look at, it will give you tremendous insight. But, if you do not know how to look at, it will give you tremendous confusion.

One of buddhist master said: NEVER EVER TRUST YOUR THOUGHT.
Because whatever you think, it can never be true. WHY? Because this universe doesn't have intrinsic value in any possible way your mind can think about.

Another buddhist master said:
IF IN REALITY, THERE IS REALLY HAVE SOMETHING INTRINSIC, IT IS FOOLISH NOT TO ACCEPT SOMETHING AS REAL.
BUT IF IN REALITY, THERE IS REALLY NOTHING INTRINSIC AND YOU CAN SEE THAT, IT IS EVEN MORE FOOLISH TO ACCEPT SOMETHING AS REAL.

The teaching of emptiness is buddhism is extremely important, because it is this teaching that prevent you to jump the gun as say this is long, this is short, this is medium, this is pain, not pain, not suffering, etc.

Why? Because from this teaching of emptiness it opens your ignorance to see what is not there as not there.

MN152, put it in this way:
when cognizing an idea with the intellect, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable.


He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable thing... this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me.


In here, if you think there is this though that this is long, this is pain, this is joy - you don't reject them by discerning these thoughts. However, if at this point, you accept them, you are extremely foolish. Why? Because you are blind. You are blind with your thought. You are blind with what is not there, you think it as there.

He feels horrified, humiliated, & disgusted with the arisen agreeable thing... disagreeable thing... agreeable & disagreeable thing.


What is the point to feel horrified and humiliated and disgusted?
Why I have to feel horrify with these thoughts?

This because whatever your thoughts offer you is never ever there.

When something has no intrinsic, it is absolutely impossible to have a character, and conceptual formation.

When your this wisdom of emptiness is fully matured, even a cancer is just seen as such. Not as pain, not as joy, not as diseases, not as ornament, not as anything. NOT EVEN AS A DISEASE.

Peaceful within that process. Just process and just as that.

When your wisdom as emptiness grow very strong, you will have this distinct feeling, everything is just one taste - different as I see, different as I hear, different as I touch, different as I taste, different as I think, but no matter what, you know precisely they are just one taste.
Last edited by DarwidHalim on Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1825
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby kirk5a » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:48 am

DarwidHalim wrote:This because whatever your thoughts offer you is never ever there.

When something has no intrinsic, it is absolutely impossible to have a character, and conceptual formation.

Can you make what is inconstant, constant, by de-conceptualizing?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

User avatar
DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:11 am

kirk5a wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:This because whatever your thoughts offer you is never ever there.

When something has no intrinsic, it is absolutely impossible to have a character, and conceptual formation.

Can you make what is inconstant, constant, by de-conceptualizing?


Absolutely.

When your insight is extremely high, you will see everything as one taste despite so many different thing.

However, if you are really really good and able to penetrate the final wisdom, you will be mute because you see precisely this reality cannot be uttered as such and such.

When you are very very deep, you will see it is not permanent, and not even impermanent. You will see precisely the meaning of emptiness of emptiness.

When this Buddha master test his final students, what have you understood?

This third student came and said
“The four elements are all empty. The five skandhas are without actual existence. Not a single dharma can be grasped

This master just said you just got my bone.

Then this master ask his last student, tell me what have you understood:
He came forward to the teacher, he bowed down silently, and he stood up right.

This master said you got my marrow.

I just want to say this:
Not even impermanent is true if you can see precisely.
Not even a process.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1825
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby kirk5a » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:42 am

DarwidHalim wrote:
kirk5a wrote:Can you make what is inconstant, constant, by de-conceptualizing?


Absolutely.

So you can make an in-breath constant then? Not-ceasing.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

User avatar
DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:35 am

Is there breathing?

This is the problem that we have actually.

Question never stop.

It is not because we should stop asking question.

But it is because we can't see there is no inherent in anything, so it makes this papanca questions keep rolling.

We ask
Is this breathing inconstant?
Rather than we think how to answer that, it is better we ask this: is there breathing in the first place?

If you can see nothing inherent, you will not be able to even ask this question.

You can answer that as no, but even all beings in this earth say you are right, in the eyes of enlightened beings, you are just wrong, because they don't see breathing in the first place.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1825
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby kirk5a » Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:32 am

DarwidHalim wrote:Is there breathing?

Yep.
You can answer that as no, but even all beings in this earth say you are right, in the eyes of enlightened beings, you are just wrong, because they don't see breathing in the first place.

The Buddha was an enlightened being, and there is no indication he didn't see breathing. On the contrary, he taught enlightenment through the mindfulness of breathing.

You really need to familiarize yourself with how the Buddha actually described the entry into emptiness which accords with actuality:
"He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the effluent of sensuality... the effluent of becoming... the effluent of ignorance, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the effluent of sensuality... becoming... ignorance. And there is just this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, pure — superior & unsurpassed.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

User avatar
DarwidHalim
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:49 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: Neither Samsara nor Nirvana

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:26 am

How if you make it as a different topic, it will be very very intellectual if you want to.

The title doesn't match.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3162
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:32 am

DarwidHalim wrote:
porpoise wrote:But there are pain receptors in the skin which produce the sensation of physical pain. And it seems to me that this is experienced as physical pain regardless of whether or not we give it a label. You can tell when an animal's in pain, they don't need to verbalise it.


In reality this is what happen.

But there are sensation receptors in the skin which produce the sensation of physical sensation. And it seems to me that this is experienced as physical sensation regardless of whether or not we give it any labels.

You can't use animal as an example - because animal doesn't have ability to analysis in deep. Even if they have, it is very shallow. Animal has this very thick ignorance due to his karma.



Pain receptors are specialized nerve endings, so it isn't just about general physical sensation. And I think animals are a good example because they demonstrate that the experience of pain is independent of labels, concepts, thought etc.
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric


Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Sylvester and 11 guests