Aggregate?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Aggregate?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:59 am

retrofuturist wrote:Unless you are Tilt, I don't see what your acceptance has to do with whether or not Tilt accepts that all the nidanas are dependent on avijja.

OK, take it as speaking for myself then. Past ignorance.
retrofuturist wrote:It is curious how people wish to speak for the lokas of others.

I'm not, I'm discussing the Buddha-Vacana. Can we stick to that?

:anjali:
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:00 am

Greetings Mike,

That would be good... even better would be discussion on the topic - i.e. aggregates and aggregation.

:thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Aggregate?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:03 am

retrofuturist wrote:That would be good... even better would be discussion on the topic - i.e. aggregates and aggregation.

Sure. They are a classification scheme that aids in seeing experience more clearly and becoming disenchanted with conditioned existence.

:anjali:
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:09 am

As Ven Nyanatiloka writes:
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... tm#khandha
Some writers on Buddhism who have not understood that the five khandha are just classificatory groupings, have conceived them as compact entities 'heaps', 'bundles', while actually, as stated above, the groups never exist as such, i.e. they never occur in a simultaneous totality of all their constituents. Also those single constituents of a group which are present in any given body-and-mind process, are of an evanescent nature, and so also their varying combinations. Feeling, perception and mental constructions are only different aspects and functions of a single unit of consciousness. They are to consciousness what redness, softness, sweetness, etc. are to an apple and have as little separate existence as those qualities.

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Re: Aggregate?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:10 am

Greetings Mike,

Mike wrote:They are a classification scheme that aids in seeing experience more clearly and becoming disenchanted with conditioned existence

Yes.

Extract from MN 149: Mahasalayatanika Sutta
http://www.vipassana.com/canon/majjhima/mn149.php

"For him -- infatuated, attached, confused, not remaining focused on their drawbacks -- the five aggregates for sustenance head toward future accumulation. The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that -- grows within him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances grow. His bodily torments & mental torments grow. His bodily distresses & mental distresses grow. He is sensitive both to bodily stress & mental stress.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Aggregate?

Postby Sylvester » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:21 am

retrofuturist wrote:In other topics I've called out this variable use of word "conditioned". In the context of the Dhamma, or paticcasamuppada, it ultimately traces back to being "conditioned by avijja" and it is therefore "sankhara". To then interchangeably use the word "conditioned" to refer to anything that may have a cause (either "out there" or "in loka" - such as, "the mountain is conditioned by the rain and wind", "the human body is conditioned by the ovum and the sperm", "the body is conditioned by food and oxygen") is to shift the frames of reference and create inconsistencies in meaning.



And why is an Arahant's post-Awakening experiences not "conditioned by" saṅkhāra in accordance with the 2nd nidāna?

It's this insistence on taking up Nanavira's insistence that DO is a single life process that dilutes the possibilities opened up by those suttas discussing the establishment (patiṭṭhā) of consciousness. The phassas that an Arahant contacts (phusati) arise in dependance on old kamma. There is nothing that an Arahant experiences that is unconditioned, except perhaps for the experience of the Attainment of Cessation.

All we can be certain is that Arahants stop creating conditions - SN 12.51. But it is not logical to surmise that therefore Arahants experience unconditioned states.
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:28 am

Greetings Sylvester,

Sylvester wrote:And why is an Arahant's post-Awakening experiences not "conditioned by" saṅkhāra in accordance with the 2nd nidāna?

Moreover, why would it be if sankhara are volitional formations?

Would arahants who have eradicated avijja take perverse pleasure in volitionally forming dukkha (i.e. sabbe sankhara dukkha)?

Curious.

"Mind precedes all dhammas. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought." (Dhp1)

What to make then of the mind of the hypothetical arahant who forms post-Awakening sankharas?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Aggregate?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:34 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sylvester wrote:And why is an Arahant's post-Awakening experiences not "conditioned by" saṅkhāra in accordance with the 2nd nidāna?

Moreover, why would it be if sankhara are volitional formations?

Would arahants who have eradicated avijja take perverse pleasure in volitionally forming dukkha (i.e. sabbe sankhara dukkha)?

Because the condition is from the past, as Sylvester explained.

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Re: Aggregate?

Postby Sylvester » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:36 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

Mike wrote:They are a classification scheme that aids in seeing experience more clearly and becoming disenchanted with conditioned existence

Yes.

Extract from MN 149: Mahasalayatanika Sutta
http://www.vipassana.com/canon/majjhima/mn149.php

"For him -- infatuated, attached, confused, not remaining focused on their drawbacks -- the five aggregates for sustenance head toward future accumulation. The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that -- grows within him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances grow. His bodily torments & mental torments grow. His bodily distresses & mental distresses grow. He is sensitive both to bodily stress & mental stress.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Could you pls explain the relevance of MN 149 to this issue?

Before you answer, I suggest you treat this particular translation with some circumspection. Perhaps there is a variant reading that supports the translation, but the 3 texts I've consulted do not say -

not remaining focused on their drawbacks


but instead say -

assādānupassino viharato
abides... contemplating gratification
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:38 am

Greetings Sylvester,

Sylvester wrote:Could you pls explain the relevance of MN 149 to this issue?

The relevance is that not understanding the true nature of aggregates leads to bad, bad, things.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Aggregate?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:39 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

Unless you are Tilt, I don't see what your acceptance has to do with whether or not Tilt accepts that all the nidanas are dependent on avijja.

It is curious how people wish to speak for the lokas of others.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Old kamma: "The eye [ear, nose tongue, body (touch), mind], monks, is to be regarded as old kamma, brought into existence and created by volition, forming a basis for feeling." "the eye . . . feeling." In other words: "Dependent on the eye and forms arise visual consciousness. The concurrence of the three is contact. Conditioned by contact is feeling." Looks like avijja had a role to play in the formation of old kamma, which is the basis for this process -- "the eye . . . feeling." Mike's speaking for "my loka" was appropriate.

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:You do not have to decribe the arahant's experience. The Buddha already has, as in the text I quoted

He is talking about loka, not lokuttara.

Lokuttara is of the arahant. The rest of your argument falls with that...

If you don't see or accept that all the nidanas are dependent on avijja, then you don't. I don't know what I can do about that.
Arahants have bodies, and having bodies we get: Dependent on the eye and forms arise visual consciousness. The concurrence of the three is contact. Conditioned by contact is feeling for the arahant. It is with their bodies that arahants live in the world, but, of course, that does not deny the fact that being arahants they are no longer conditioned -- asankhata -- by greed, hatred, and delusion, the delusional connexion with the all is broken, they are tathagata: Since a tathagata, even when actually present, is incomprehensible, it is inept to say of him – of the Uttermost Person, the Supernal Person, the Attainer of the Supernal – that after death the tathagata is, or is not, or both is and is not, or neither is nor is not SN III 118. But their backs can hurt and even "when I am traveling along a road and see no one in front or behind me, at that time I have my ease, even when urinating & defecating." My guesss, as the Buddha states, that arahants see, etc just like we do (but without the greed, hatred, and delusion), and my guess is that they pee and poop just like we do. No need to try to make them some sort of totally, completely unconditioned in every aspect whatever.

"Monks, I will teach you the All as a phenomenon to be abandoned. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "And which All is a phenomenon to be abandoned? The eye is to be abandoned. [1] Forms are to be abandoned. Consciousness at the eye is to be abandoned. Contact at the eye is to be abandoned. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is to be abandoned.

"The ear is to be abandoned. Sounds are to be abandoned...

"The nose is to be abandoned. Aromas are to be abandoned...

"The tongue is to be abandoned. Flavors are to be abandoned...

"The body is to be abandoned. Tactile sensations are to be abandoned...

"The intellect is to be abandoned. Ideas are to be abandoned. Consciousness at the intellect is to be abandoned. Contact at the intellect is to be abandoned. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is to be abandoned.

"This is called the All as a phenomenon to be abandoned."
Note
1.To abandon the eye, etc., here means to abandon passion and desire for these things.
SN iv 15 CDB ii 1140
It is worth noting what Ven Thanissaro is not saying here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby Sylvester » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:45 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Sylvester,

Sylvester wrote:And why is an Arahant's post-Awakening experiences not "conditioned by" saṅkhāra in accordance with the 2nd nidāna?

Moreover, why would it be if sankhara are volitional formations?

Would arahants who have eradicated avijja take perverse pleasure in volitionally forming dukkha (i.e. sabbe sankhara dukkha)?

Curious.

"Mind precedes all dhammas. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought." (Dhp1)

What to make then of the mind of the hypothetical arahant who forms post-Awakening sankharas?

Metta,
Retro. :)


According to SN 12.51, an Arahant cannot generate any kind of saṅkhāra. Read together with SN 12.38-39, there is a pretty comprehensive list of the types of saṅkhāras that an Arahant is incapable of generating.

I think you're confusing MN 44's saṅkhāras with SN 12's saṅkhāras, in your quote above on "sabbe sankhara dukkha". MN 44's saṅkhāras continue to plague an Arahant post-awakening, contrary to Ven Nanavira's loopy theory.

In case you've not noticed, BB inserts "volitional", when describing the SN 12 saṅkhāras, to remove any confusion with the MN 44 saṅkhāras.
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:47 am

Sylvester wrote:According to SN 12.51, an Arahant cannot generate any kind of saṅkhāra. Read together with SN 12.38-39, there is a pretty comprehensive list of the types of saṅkhāras that an Arahant is incapable of generating.

I think you're confusing MN 44's saṅkhāras with SN 12's saṅkhāras, in your quote above on "sabbe sankhara dukkha". MN 44's saṅkhāras continue to plague an Arahant post-awakening, contrary to Ven Nanavira's loopy theory.

In case you've not noticed, BB inserts "volitional", when describing the SN 12 saṅkhāras, to remove any confusion with the MN 44 saṅkhāras.
These are, indeed, vital distinctions to make.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:52 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Mike's speaking for "my loka" was appropriate.

More accurately, there is concurrence in view. Speaking for anyone's loka is risky business without the ability to penetrate minds.

tiltbillings wrote:Arahants have bodies... But their backs can hurt... urinating & defecating.

That's all from the "out there" perspective though - not even "in loka". I'm talking of the phenomenology of the arahant's experience, the living experience of one who has said with their own words that they have laid down the aggregates. Of such an arahant, we could speak of how we see them from the outside, but how could we dare speak of their lokuttara experience as if we knew, let alone try to pin aggregates, contacts, and other what not on them and say that's what they experience?

tiltbillings wrote:Since a tathagata, even when actually present, is incomprehensible, it is inept to say of him – of the Uttermost Person, the Supernal Person, the Attainer of the Supernal – that after death the tathagata is, or is not, or both is and is not, or neither is nor is not SN III 118.

Indeed, my point exactly. Yet, the (largely off-topic) discussion continues...

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Aggregate?

Postby Sylvester » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:52 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Sylvester,

Sylvester wrote:Could you pls explain the relevance of MN 149 to this issue?

The relevance is that not understanding the true nature of aggregates leads to bad, bad, things.

Metta,
Retro. :)



And pls explain what else besides their impermanance, suffering, non-self and dependently arisen qualities should one perceive in order to escape from bad, bad things. Sutta citations pls.

I do not see emptiness praised as a predicate to be ferreted out. Take a look at the refrain on the perception of feelings.

Frankly, your peddling sunyata to a tradition which has discovered the antidote to Sarva Materialism is like those door-to-door preachers who insist that we need to be saved.
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:00 am

Greetings Sylvester,

Sylvester wrote:I think you're confusing MN 44's saṅkhāras with SN 12's saṅkhāras, in your quote above on "sabbe sankhara dukkha". MN 44's saṅkhāras continue to plague an Arahant post-awakening, contrary to Ven Nanavira's loopy theory.

In case you've not noticed, BB inserts "volitional", when describing the SN 12 saṅkhāras, to remove any confusion with the MN 44 saṅkhāras.

That inconsistency is Bhikkhu Bodhi patchwork needed to hold up the rickety scaffolding of the "three-life" paticcasamuppada model.

MN 22 wrote: "Monks, this Teaching so well proclaimed by me, is plain, open, explicit, free of patchwork. In this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork; for those who are arahants, free of taints, who have accomplished and completed their task, have laid down the burden, achieved their aim, severed the fetters binding to existence, who are liberated by full knowledge, there is no (future) round of existence that can be ascribed to them.

Bhikkhu Bodhi's partiality in presenting his view of Dhamma is well known...

Bhikkhu Bodhi, A Critical Examination of Nanavira Thera's A Note on Paticcasamuppaada wrote:My purpose in writing this examination is to vindicate the traditional three-life interpretation

Weren't we talking about aggregates? :thinking:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Aggregate?

Postby Sylvester » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:06 am

retrofuturist wrote:That's all from the "out there" perspective though - not even "in loka". I'm talking of the phenomenology of the arahant's experience, the living experience of one who has said with their own words that they have laid down the aggregates.


SN 12.15 is the go-to sutta for what it means for an Arahant who has laid down the Aggregates. More accurately, that sutta does not speak of laying down the Aggregates, but of -

Tañcāyaṃ upayupādānaṃ cetaso adhiṭṭhānaṃ abhinivesānusayaṃ na upeti na upādiyati nādhiṭṭhāti— ‘attā me’ti.


Instead of laying down the Aggregates, the Arahant does not take up the Aggregates as "my self".
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:09 am

Greetings Sylvester,

Sylvester wrote:And pls explain what else besides their impermanance, suffering, non-self and dependently arisen qualities should one perceive in order to escape from bad, bad things. Sutta citations pls.

SN 55.3 wrote:"Remain focused on inconstancy in all fabrications, percipient of stress in what is inconstant, percipient of not-self in what is stressful, percipient of abandoning, percipient of dispassion, percipient of cessation. That's how you should train yourself."

Sylvester wrote:I do not see emptiness praised as a predicate to be ferreted out.

SN 20.7 wrote:Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, there once was a time when the Dasarahas had a large drum called 'Summoner.' Whenever Summoner was split, the Dasarahas inserted another peg in it, until the time came when Summoner's original wooden body had disappeared and only a conglomeration of pegs remained. [1]

"In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.

"In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — will come about.

"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves."

Note: [1.] Ironically, the Commentary notes that the drum originally could be heard for twelve leagues, but in its final condition couldn't be heard even from behind a curtain.

Sylvester wrote:Frankly, your peddling sunyata to a tradition which has discovered the antidote to Sarva Materialism is like those door-to-door preachers who insist that we need to be saved.

Melodrama, yawn.

:offtopic:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Aggregate?

Postby pegembara » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:11 am

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:[4] as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.

"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding."


Satta Sutta

In other words "Don't play with sandcastles".
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Aggregate?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:13 am

Greetings Sylvester,

Sylvester wrote:SN 12.15 is the go-to sutta for what it means for an Arahant who has laid down the Aggregates. More accurately, that sutta does not speak of laying down the Aggregates, but of -

Tañcāyaṃ upayupādānaṃ cetaso adhiṭṭhānaṃ abhinivesānusayaṃ na upeti na upādiyati nādhiṭṭhāti— ‘attā me’ti.


Instead of laying down the Aggregates, the Arahant does not take up the Aggregates as "my self".


See pegembara's post above about smashing them, plus the link pegembara provided earlier that was discretely ignored at the time...

SN 22.22: Bhāra Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

"Monks, I will explain to you the burden, the laying hold of the burden, the holding on to the burden, the laying down of the burden. Listen.

"What, monks, is the burden?

"'The five groups of clinging' is the answer.
Which five? They are: the group of clinging to corporeality,... to feelings,... to perceptions,... to mental formations,... to consciousness. This, monks, is called 'the burden.'

"What is the laying hold of the burden? The answer is that it is the person, the Venerable So-and-so, of such-and-such a family. This, monks, is called 'the laying hold of the burden.'

"What is the holding on to the burden? The answer is that it is that craving which gives rise to fresh rebirth and, bound up with lust and greed, now here now there finds ever fresh delight. It is sensual craving, craving for existence, craving for non-existence. This, monks, is called 'the holding on to the burden.'

"What is the laying down of the burden? It is the complete fading away and extinction of this craving, its forsaking and giving up, liberation and detachment from it. This, monks, is called 'the laying down of the burden.'"

Thus said the Blessed One, the Well-farer spoke thus; the Teacher then said:

The five groups are the heavy load,
The seizing of the load is man.
Holding it is misery,
Laying down the load is bliss.
Laying down this heavy load,
And no other taking up,
By uprooting all desire,
Hunger's stilled, Nibbaana's gained

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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