What is your definition of religion/religious impulse

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pink_trike
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Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse

Post by pink_trike »

Religion:

a. A naming convention. A convenient conceptual header under which religious people place certain questions and experiences.

b. the institutions that gather and grow around those questions and experiences that religious people place under the header of religion.

c. A political movement

Religious:

a. A egoic identity - "I am a religious person"

b. The experience of a religious impulse and/or religiosity.

Religious impulse:

A movement of the mind. A mind-state. A sensory/conceptual experience that arises as a result of internal/external conditioning. An obscuration.

Religiosity:

Extended or habitual attachment to religious impulse
Last edited by pink_trike on Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:32 am, edited 4 times in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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pink_trike
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Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse

Post by pink_trike »

zavk wrote:Hi all,NOTE: This was written for pink_trike in response to his questions in 'Buddhism and Religion'.
Hi zavk,

This looks juicy and interesting! I'm going to have to clear some time to digest it.

I'm slammed this week so it prolly won't be until this weekend. :coffee:
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Ben
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Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse

Post by Ben »

Thank you Zavk that was a brilliant post. Earlier this morning I was talking to a co-practitioner about practicing Dhamma in daily life (with respect to the little renunciations and serving others) and what I was trying to communicate was a state of mind that borders on Caputo's all experience, has a religious character, .

Because of that, and because of what others have said with regards to the nature of Buddhist experience and how different it is from other conceptions or experiences of religion, I have found it nigh-on-impossible to give much of a meaningful response to Pink's original contention.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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pink_trike
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Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse

Post by pink_trike »

Ben wrote:Thank you Zavk that was a brilliant post. Earlier this morning I was talking to a co-practitioner about practicing Dhamma in daily life (with respect to the little renunciations and serving others) and what I was trying to communicate was a state of mind that borders on Caputo's all experience, has a religious character, .

Because of that, and because of what others have said with regards to the nature of Buddhist experience and how different it is from other conceptions or experiences of religion, I have found it nigh-on-impossible to give much of a meaningful response to Pink's original contention.
Metta

Ben
Hi Ben,

Ah, but I do wholeheartedly agree that "all experience, has a ________________ character". I just don't think it is "religious". I might say that it has a "clear" character...though I'm still working on naming that character, being aware that naming is risky business.

But this would be a topic for a different thread.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Ben
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Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse

Post by Ben »

Hi Pink

I understand the issue of the use of terms and how they can be charged for different people or different contexts. Many of my co-practitioners do not define themselves as Buddhist despite taking refuge in triple gem, despite practicing sila, samadhi & panna. Some years ago i relented because it was just much more easier to tell people 'I'm buddhist' or talk with other buddhists. There was at least a frame of reference from which communication could begin. And I figured that if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, farts like a duck, then it must be a duck. My co-practitioners who didn't define themselvs as Buddhist, were really just applying a different label to themselves, whether it was 'meditator', 'vipassana meditator', 'old student' or 'not a buddhist'. These days I do use the term 'buddhist' to describe myself with ease having realised that some of my past attitude towards the term was really about some negativity I had.

So again, 'religion' is a term of convenience. As I have mentioned above and elsewhere, it doesn't contain the range and depth of experience that I would like in a term. But the term is a convenient launching place for more meaningful communication.

Good luck with the naming. No doubt it will be a very valuable experience to explore the notions of religion, transcendence and wisdom in depth.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Jechbi
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Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse

Post by Jechbi »

I think this works as a definitive description of the religious impulse:
from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... toend.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:The search for a spiritual path is born out of suffering. It does not start with lights and ecstasy, but with the hard tacks of pain, disappointment, and confusion. However, for suffering to give birth to a genuine spiritual search, it must amount to more than something passively received from without. It has to trigger an inner realization, a perception which pierces through the facile complacency of our usual encounter with the world to glimpse the insecurity perpetually gaping underfoot. When this insight dawns, even if only momentarily, it can precipitate a profound personal crisis. It overturns accustomed goals and values, mocks our routine preoccupations, leaves old enjoyments stubbornly unsatisfying.

At first such changes generally are not welcome. We try to deny our vision and to smother our doubts; we struggle to drive away the discontent with new pursuits. But the flame of inquiry, once lit, continues to burn, and if we do not let ourselves be swept away by superficial readjustments or slouch back into a patched up version of our natural optimism, eventually the original glimmering of insight will again flare up, again confront us with our essential plight. It is precisely at that point, with all escape routes blocked, that we are ready to seek a way to bring our disquietude to an end.
(also posted in the other thread)
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
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Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse

Post by pink_trike »

Jechbi wrote:I think this works as a definitive description of the religious impulse:
from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... toend.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:The search for a spiritual path is born out of suffering. It does not start with lights and ecstasy, but with the hard tacks of pain, disappointment, and confusion. However, for suffering to give birth to a genuine spiritual search, it must amount to more than something passively received from without. It has to trigger an inner realization, a perception which pierces through the facile complacency of our usual encounter with the world to glimpse the insecurity perpetually gaping underfoot. When this insight dawns, even if only momentarily, it can precipitate a profound personal crisis. It overturns accustomed goals and values, mocks our routine preoccupations, leaves old enjoyments stubbornly unsatisfying.

At first such changes generally are not welcome. We try to deny our vision and to smother our doubts; we struggle to drive away the discontent with new pursuits. But the flame of inquiry, once lit, continues to burn, and if we do not let ourselves be swept away by superficial readjustments or slouch back into a patched up version of our natural optimism, eventually the original glimmering of insight will again flare up, again confront us with our essential plight. It is precisely at that point, with all escape routes blocked, that we are ready to seek a way to bring our disquietude to an end.
(also posted in the other thread)
I would suggest that this only describes teleological motivation.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Jechbi
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Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse

Post by Jechbi »

As opposed to what?

On further reflection I don't understand why you say that. Please explain.
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Uncover, then, what is concealed,
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Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote:
Jechbi wrote:I think this works as a definitive description of the religious impulse:
from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... toend.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:The search for a spiritual path is born out of suffering. It does not start with lights and ecstasy, but with the hard tacks of pain, disappointment, and confusion. However, for suffering to give birth to a genuine spiritual search, it must amount to more than something passively received from without. It has to trigger an inner realization, a perception which pierces through the facile complacency of our usual encounter with the world to glimpse the insecurity perpetually gaping underfoot. When this insight dawns, even if only momentarily, it can precipitate a profound personal crisis. It overturns accustomed goals and values, mocks our routine preoccupations, leaves old enjoyments stubbornly unsatisfying.

At first such changes generally are not welcome. We try to deny our vision and to smother our doubts; we struggle to drive away the discontent with new pursuits. But the flame of inquiry, once lit, continues to burn, and if we do not let ourselves be swept away by superficial readjustments or slouch back into a patched up version of our natural optimism, eventually the original glimmering of insight will again flare up, again confront us with our essential plight. It is precisely at that point, with all escape routes blocked, that we are ready to seek a way to bring our disquietude to an end.
(also posted in the other thread)
I would suggest that this only describes teleological motivation.
Theological motivation? And where god mentioned in these two paragraphs? This exactly the point I made about the First Noble Truth as a motivating factor, as the basis for the religious endeavor.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse

Post by Jechbi »

I think he's saying teleological, as in the ends justify the means. But I'm not sure how he's using the term exactly.
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Uncover, then, what is concealed,
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Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse

Post by Fede »

clw_uk wrote:Hey Fede
It merely means a person devotes themselves to a specific calling.
Do you include communism, socialism, peta etc as religion?



Metta
religion
noun 1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. 2 a particular system of faith and worship. 3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion.

— ORIGIN originally in the sense life under monastic vows: from Latin religio ‘obligation, reverence’.
From:
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/or ... on?view=uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Look at definition #3.....
It's up to the person ascribing themselves to those views....Politics and religion are very close bedfellows....have been for millennia.
Whilst I personally may not call those specific "paths" 'religions', it's possible others do....and I have heard someone say that Communism was their religion.
So, it's up to the individual to state their own system....
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse

Post by tiltbillings »

Jechbi wrote:I think he's saying teleological, as in the ends justify the means. But I'm not sure how he's using the term exactly.
Yes. My mistake. Needing my perscription updated.

And I agree. He needs to explain what looks to be a rather idionsyncratic usage of "teleological."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse

Post by pink_trike »

tiltbillings wrote:
Jechbi wrote:I think he's saying teleological, as in the ends justify the means. But I'm not sure how he's using the term exactly.
And I agree. He needs to explain what looks to be a rather idionsyncratic usage of "teleological."
In the field of Psychology the word is often used to describe an innate impulse in all living beings to move toward the end state of homeostasis or balance.

Dukkha (dissatisfaction) triggers this impulse.
Last edited by pink_trike on Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Jechbi
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Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse

Post by Jechbi »

pink_trike wrote:In the field of Psychology the word is often used to describe an innate impulse in all living beings to move toward the end state of homeostasis or balance. Dukkha (dissatisfaction) triggers this impulse.
In other words you're saying the religious impulse is the motivation to end dukkha?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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pink_trike
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Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse

Post by pink_trike »

Jechbi wrote:
pink_trike wrote:In the field of Psychology the word is often used to describe an innate impulse in all living beings to move toward the end state of homeostasis or balance. Dukkha (dissatisfaction) triggers this impulse.
In other words you're saying the religious impulse is the motivation to end dukkha?
No, I'm saying that the religious impulse renders the teleological impulse impotent. This is better understood if we view the religious impulse as a manifestation of religious materialism.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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