SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:51 am

porpoise wrote:
Sam Vega wrote: But Sankhara-Dukkhata seems to be the more important, as it underlies and conditions all our experience, whether or not physical and mental pain are actually present.


Yes, I think that's why this type of dukkha is associated with neutral feeling. Because our existence and experience is conditioned and uncertain, neutral feeling will inevitably "tip over", either into pleasant feeling ( cue the suffering of change ie loss of pleasant feeling ) or into unpleasant feeling ( cue the "ordinary" suffering of pain ).


I think Sankhara-Dukkhata is of wider significance than this, although you are undoubtedly correct to say that it refers to neutral feelings and to point out that such feelings pass away and become something which frequently is worse. But if that is all it is, then it could be considered as a form of Viparinama-Dukkhata. Stuff changes, we can't rely on it not hurting us. Existentially, there is a wider problem than the hedonic tone of our experiences, and this is captured in the "wrongness" of our being conditioned entities. Sankharas "put us together", so to speak, and reconstitute our existence as apparently separate beings with insatiable appetites. Ajahn Sucitto is very good on this aspect of Dhamma, and the audio link given by Mike above is well worth spending 50 minutes on.
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby Caraka » Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:12 pm

Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish


Dukkha-Dukkhataa for oneself arise, fade, and change to something else. Maybe into a neutral feeling? But most likely into a sense of relief, if one consider e.g. pain as a starting point. But in the context of not self it seems like Dhukka-Dukkhata have an more static (constant) attribute the others don't, and seems to depend on Sankhara-Dukkhataa or Vipariṇāma-Dukkhataa as underlying factors. Or does it not?
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:38 am

mikenz66 wrote:1. Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.
2. Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change"
3. Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena". This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling.


So which of these 3 types of dukkha is alleviated by developing insight?
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby Sam Vara » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:30 am

porpoise wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:1. Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.
2. Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change"
3. Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena". This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling.


So which of these 3 types of dukkha is alleviated by developing insight?


Hi porpoise,

I think they all are. In the Saccasamyutta section of the Samyutta Nikaya (i.e. the section that deals specifically with the Four Noble Truths, the first of which is the truth of Dukkha) there are many exhortations to develop understanding of Dukkha, but the types of Dukkha are not differentiated as per SN 45.165.

But there are many references to the first Noble Truth being fully understood,which I think is indicative that whatever one is urged to do in order to develop the understanding, is fully effective. Sometimes one is urged to develop concentration, and sometimes one is urged to develop seclusion. (There is nothing specific about how to develop insight, but I think that this is another term for the "understanding" of the Noble Truths.)

SN 56.29, for example, has

Of these Four Noble Truths, Bhikkhus, there is a noble truth that is to be fully understood...And what, Bhikkhus, is the noble truth that is to be fully understood? The noble truth of suffering is to be fully understood...

And SN 56 24:

Whatever Arahants, Perfectly Enlightened Ones, fully awakened...will fully awaken...have fully awakened to things as they really are, all have fully awakened to these Four Noble Truths as they really are.


So I think the fact that the truth is to be "fully understood" and that Arahants "fully awaken" is indicative that insight into this truth is complete and undifferentiated.
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:31 pm

Sam Vega wrote:
porpoise wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:1. Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.
2. Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change"
3. Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena". This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling.


So which of these 3 types of dukkha is alleviated by developing insight?


Hi porpoise,

I think they all are. In the Saccasamyutta section of the Samyutta Nikaya (i.e. the section that deals specifically with the Four Noble Truths, the first of which is the truth of Dukkha) there are many exhortations to develop understanding of Dukkha, but the types of Dukkha are not differentiated as per SN 45.165.



I agree that insight into dukkha is essential, but I was asking which types of dukkka are alleviated by such insight. Or to ask the question another way, which of these 3 types of dukkha cease as a result of insight?
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby Caraka » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:34 pm

I agree that insight into dukkha is essential, but I was asking which types of dukkka are alleviated by such insight. Or to ask the question another way, which of these 3 types of dukkha cease as a result of insight?


Yes, good question. Cause for me it seems like the word dukkhataa not necessarily indicates oneself.
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby Sam Vara » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:19 pm

Caraka wrote:
I agree that insight into dukkha is essential, but I was asking which types of dukkka are alleviated by such insight. Or to ask the question another way, which of these 3 types of dukkha cease as a result of insight?


Yes, good question. Cause for me it seems like the word dukkhataa not necessarily indicates oneself.


I think that as far as the suttas dealing with Dukkha are concerned, the clear inference is that all three types of Dukkha cease. But the sensible thing would be to work on the insight and find out for oneself.

The word dukhata is the abstract noun for the state of suffering

Code: Select all
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Dukkhata


so it definitely does not indicate oneself, but includes it.
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:08 pm

porpoise wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:1. Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.
2. Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change"
3. Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena". This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling.


So which of these 3 types of dukkha is alleviated by developing insight?

the latter two in your list.
the first is the first dart the latter seam to me to be sebsequent dart(s)
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby Caraka » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:43 pm

Thanks for sharing resources with me :namaste:

The approach I try to crasp the use of logic in the writing, without thinking which insight, Dhamma or what it could mean for oneself.

Logically one can look upon what happens for all, one individual isolated, or both those included. Already this discrimination imply different attributes for each of the dukkhataa. And I think time is always a logic factor, even if its not relevant in the big picture, it is always relevant in a pedagogic way of teaching. One can also assume that the teaching, ie. the chosen way of writing, are quite similar for many suttas. Interesting indeed.


What is dart(s)?
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:24 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
porpoise wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:1. Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.
2. Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change"
3. Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena". This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling.


So which of these 3 types of dukkha is alleviated by developing insight?

the latter two in your list.
the first is the first dart the latter seam to me to be sebsequent dart(s)


That's what I assumed, but I'm now wondering whether first dart is the physical pain of dukkha-dukkhataa, with the second dart being the mental pain of dukkha-dukkhataa?
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:27 pm

Caraka wrote:What is dart(s)?


It's a reference to the Arrow Sutta, here is a brief extract:

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental."
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:26 pm

porpoise wrote:
Caraka wrote:What is dart(s)?


It's a reference to the Arrow Sutta, here is a brief extract:

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental."


Sounds good on the surface, but my personal experience has been that if pain is ignored and medical care not sought, the disease processes progress and knee buckling physical pain makes one experience fear for the worsening of the pain. Death if painless is never feared, but a lingering, painful death is always feared. Hence the development of narcotics.
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby Libertus77 » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:44 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote:
porpoise wrote:
Caraka wrote:What is dart(s)?


It's a reference to the Arrow Sutta, here is a brief extract:

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental."


Sounds good on the surface, but my personal experience has been that if pain is ignored and medical care not sought, the disease processes progress and knee buckling physical pain makes one experience fear for the worsening of the pain. Death if painless is never feared, but a lingering, painful death is always feared. Hence the development of narcotics.


Well, I don't think that the sutta excerpt is calling for one to ignore a physical pain, but not to add to a physical pain with mental anguish. I would think that with insight and mindfulness, understanding and moving to alleviate causes of physical pain would be more possible.

Be well!

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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby danieLion » Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:18 am

Mike,
Thanks for posting this. Very useful.

All,
I intend to read all the links and listen to all the talks before I say much but I have one preliminary question.

Are we aiming for a one-to-one correspondence from Pali to English? I know no one's stated it, but it seems like an underlying assumption of the participants of this discussion.

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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:22 am

Hi Daniel,
danieLion wrote:I intend to read all the links and listen to all the talks before I say much but I have one preliminary question.

Yes, there is a lot in this sutta, and those talks give various useful perspectives.
danieLion wrote:Are we aiming for a one-to-one correspondence from Pali to English? I know no one's stated it, but it seems like an underlying assumption of the participants of this discussion.

I think it's unlikely it will work well, particularly for words like dukkha or sankhara. However, I'm not completely sure what you are referring to. Speaking generally, what I sometimes see as problematical is to fixate on a particular English term, and then reading things into it that are not justified by the Pali term. In the case of dukkha, if we take "suffering" too literally as the translation then it seems puzzling when we read that dukkha can be associated with pleasant of neutral experiences.

:anjali:
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:42 am

Sam Vega wrote:The word dukhata is the abstract noun for the state of suffering


I'm trying to work out what it means to say that dukkhata is an abstract noun. :thinking:
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby Sam Vara » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:57 pm

porpoise wrote:
Sam Vega wrote:The word dukhata is the abstract noun for the state of suffering


I'm trying to work out what it means to say that dukkhata is an abstract noun. :thinking:


Hi porpoise,

It means that it is the general term for something that cannot be known in its totality via the senses. The opposite of a concrete noun, which refers to one specific thing or class of things. So if you want to translate it as "suffering", then it is suffering in general, rather than one specific instance of suffering like "my anxiety" or "your toothache". If you want to translate it as "wrongness", then it is the abstract conception of wrongness, rather than one specific instance of a particular thing being wrong.
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:47 pm

Sam Vega wrote:
porpoise wrote:
Sam Vega wrote:The word dukhata is the abstract noun for the state of suffering


I'm trying to work out what it means to say that dukkhata is an abstract noun. :thinking:


Hi porpoise,

It means that it is the general term for something that cannot be known in its totality via the senses. The opposite of a concrete noun, which refers to one specific thing or class of things. So if you want to translate it as "suffering", then it is suffering in general, rather than one specific instance of suffering like "my anxiety" or "your toothache". If you want to translate it as "wrongness", then it is the abstract conception of wrongness, rather than one specific instance of a particular thing being wrong.


Thanks - possibly I'm overthinking this! So if dukkhata means suffering in a generic, non-specific sense, then 3 types of dukkha we're discussing are specific categories / types? Or different levels?
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:46 pm

Hi Porpoise,

Yes, I think you're over thinking it. I'm no Pali expert but you'll find that when applied to something in particular the word dukkha or dukkhaṃ is used:
Jātipi dukkhā jarāpi dukkhā maraṇampi dukkhaṃ,
Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful.

In that case it seems to be acting as an adjective.

Whereas dukkhata would be "stressfulness" if we continue to use Thanissaro's translation.

I think that the point to take away from this is that the "Pali terms" that are commonly quoted are not necessarily the forms you'll see if you look in the suttas. Pali has complicated verb forms and so on, like Latin or Greek, so it's easy to get baffled when looking at the Pali and wondering "where does it say X?"

:anjali:
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Postby danieLion » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:22 am

mikenz66 wrote:Some discussions of the three types of dukkha:...Andrea Fella: http://www.audiodharma.org/talks/audio_ ... 85.html....


Andrea Fella elaborates:

Streams:

The Four Noble Truths [1 of 1]
The Truth of Dukkha [1 of 2]

Dukkha as a Teacher

Using Suffering as a Guide
---
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