Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:46 am

This kind of thing cannot be seen in one day.

You should try slowly with vipassana meditation.

You can try when your leg is pain.

If you can see that pain as sensation, you will have different reaction.
If you see that sensation as pain, you will have different reaction.
If you see that sensation as something you really really wait, you will have different reaction.

We can't understand that with pure analysis, because the concept of pain and joy is extremely deep inside us.

Even in your dream, when you dream tiger chase you, you will scared.

Ridiculous isn't it? How can a tiger chase me in the dream can cause fear? Why?

Like in a dream we see what is unreal as real, like that as well during awake, what is not there is seen as there.

Try in your meditation, you will see.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby danieLion » Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:31 am

DarwidHalim wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:They are just sensation that you label as pain.

In reality, it is just sensation. Nothing more, nothing less.

"Sensation" is also a label.


Absolutely.

Hi DH, Kirk,
"Sensation" is not merely a label, and sensating is more than a label; it's an activity.
Best,
Daniel
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:50 am

DarwidHalim wrote:If you can see that pain as sensation, you will have different reaction.
If you see that sensation as pain, you will have different reaction.
If you see that sensation as something you really really wait, you will have different reaction.


So are you saying you don't distinguish between pleasant and unpleasant vedana?
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:26 pm

In the past, I really differentiate what Is pleasant as absolutely / definitely pleasant. What is unpleasant as unpleasant.

But the more I look at it, the more I can see for myself, it is just the game of my mind.

Reality move just like that.

When I see mountain eruption, before I see that as natural disaster.

I see that in that way, because that is what society say.

But the more I look at it, the more I see that mountain eruption is just a natural process and not as a natural disaster.

Good, bad, all of them are just the game of my mind.

I see no basis at all how I should believe that.

But frankly, I am far from that, very bad practitioner. :redherring:
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby kirk5a » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:12 pm

danieLion wrote:Hi DH, Kirk,
"Sensation" is not merely a label, and sensating is more than a label; it's an activity.
Best,
Daniel

I agree. Dropping labels and conceptualizing does not stop the appearance (manifestation in experience) of that activity. (which, it should be noted, requires attention towards that, to be clearly manifest.)

Darwid is making an overly big hullaballoo about dropping concepts, using that to foment the extreme position of "not real/not there"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby santa100 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:35 pm

I appreciate that Darwid went in great length to emphasize the abandonement of conceptualization, which is crucial for developing Right View. But I'd like to add that although this is the very important first step, there're still a lot to be done. It's not a coincidence that the Buddha taught us the Eightfold Noble Path, not a Singlefold Noble Path. After Right View, there're Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, and Right Concentration. A practitioner will need to fulfill ALL of these factors to succesfully eradicate all fetters and to attain liberation..
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:04 pm

kirk5a wrote:Dropping labels and conceptualizing does not stop the appearance (manifestation in experience) of that activity. (which, it should be noted, requires attention towards that, to be clearly manifest.)

Darwid is making an overly big hullaballoo about dropping concepts, using that to foment the extreme position of "not real/not there"


Yes, dropping labels and concept indeed does not stop the appearance (manifestation)

Up to here you are right. I never assert the opposite as well.

But, you actually go a bit further which make it not right, which is manifestation in EXPERIENCE.

Who is experiencing?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby whynotme » Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:20 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:Reflection,

It is in this impermanence, ignorance people suffer, because what is not there is seen as there.

Ironically,

It is in this impermanence as well, people enlighten, because what is not there is seen as not there.

Have you ever wonder how can a yogic walk through the wall?

One of the yogic said this:

You make thing solid not because it is actually solid.
It is solid because you conceptually make it solid and you believe so.

Siddharta Gautama can walk through the wall, walk through anything, even when his aggregate is there.

We think he has aggregate because he has this bloody and meaty bone.
That is what we think.
But do you think he also think in this way? It is just no.

If you think this aggregate is solid and becomes the source of suffering, you will get what you think.

But if you can see the nature of your aggregate and can see everything as just process, you will just be able to see everything indeed cannot be mine and no point to make everything as personal because those intrinsic things just cant be found.

There are arahants without superpower. He see things as things truly are but he cannot walk through wall.

Dont explain superpower through your eyes.
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby daverupa » Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:38 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:Who is experiencing?


Vedana is manifest for arahants; well-taught, well-instructed noble ones directly know feeling, they simply do not conceive thereby.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby kirk5a » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:31 pm

DarwidHalim wrote:Yes, dropping labels and concept indeed does not stop the appearance (manifestation)

Up to here you are right. I never assert the opposite as well.

But, you actually go a bit further which make it not right, which is manifestation in EXPERIENCE.

Who is experiencing?

"Experience" is just a word Darwid, used to facilitate understanding in a conversation. Using it does not bind anyone to a philosophical position about "who is experiencing" or that "no one is experiencing."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:39 pm

Dropping labels and concepts, does not stop the appearances to manifest.
Dropping labels and concepts, does not stop the thoughts to manifest.

You can have millions of thoughts to manifest as results from various kammas- I am sitting, the fire is burning, this is tree, this is book, i am angry, I am jealous and anything.

But, if at this maximum point, there is a sense or assertion or believe or notion or view of

"this is me" is this is me,
"I am sitting" is I am sitting,
"thought" is thought,
"this is fire" is this is fire,
"this is tree" is this is tree,
"this is book" is this is book,
"I am angry" is I am angry,
"I am jealous" is I am jealous,

At that instance if "......." can turn to ...... Instead of in its original state as ".........", you should know instantly-

you just haven't dropped anything, not even a single dot of label and concept.

You still live under your illusions.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby danieLion » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:44 am

DarwidHalim wrote:Who is experiencing?

Hi Darwid,
Not who (a "thing"), but what (a process). Answer: the pañcaupādānakhanda.
Best,
Daniel
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby danieLion » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:47 am

kirk5a wrote:"Experience" is just a word....

Hi Kirk,
You're committing the same error you did with "sensation."

Experience is more than just a word. I think it's better to say most experience occurs on a non-verbal level.

Best,
Daniel
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby DarwidHalim » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:46 am

danieLion wrote:
DarwidHalim wrote:Who is experiencing?

Hi Darwid,
Not who (a "thing"), but what (a process). Answer: the pañcaupādānakhanda.
Best,
Daniel


Daniel,

It is very important for us to differentiate between "......" and .......

The inability to differentiate "......" and ....... will hinder the liberation of that person in a very serious way. This is highlighted seriously by many buddhist masters.

When you see a tree, your eyes just have "tree"
when you hear a music, your ears just have "music"
when you taste a chilly, your tongue just have "chilly"
When you touch the harsh surface, your skin just have "harsh surface"

But, when it comes to confused mind, ONLY AT A SPLIT SECOND:
"tree" will become tree
"music" becomes music
"chilly" becomes chilly
"harsh surface" becomes harsh surface.

It is impossible for confused beings, to even notice "tree" as just "tree", "music" as just "music". This is because concept and label has been sooooooo deep, that only at a fraction of second, they miss this NAKED APPEARANCES.

Do you know the difference between a mirror and an enlightened mind? There is no difference.
If you put a tree in front of the mirror, INSTANTLY "tree" appear.
If enlightened beings see a tree, INSTANTLY "tree" also appear.

How about confused beings?
If confused beings see a tree, ONLY AT SPLIT SECOND (and this is unnoticeable) "tree" appear and what confused beings see is no longer "tree", but tree.

This "......" and ...... is extremely important to be known. Because if you do not know the different between "......." and ......, you will come out with the idea that when you realize your buddhahood, you will like a statue, like a piece of dead wood.

This is like when Buddha see a tree, not even "tree" appear, but totally blank.
Please note, that is defect and totally wrong.

Like you have a mirror and you put tree in front of the mirror, but nothing is reflected on the mirror. This is impossible.

In "........." there is no feeling, no perception, no mental formations, and no aggregates

But, when that "......." turn to ........, there is feeling, perception, mental formations, and aggregates.

For example: if you see a naked woman and you straight away has desire to touch her.

If at that instant what you see is "naked woman" and "wanting to touch her", feeling cannot be said to be form, because "wanting to touch her" is still in naked condition "wanting to touch her".

But when what you have is naked woman and wanting to touch her, you form feeling.

This the place where Retro put his idea: If there is no bundle (verb), there is no bundle (noun).

When you change from "wanting to touch her" to wanting to touch her, and that instant your delusion start to seep into you and your action is based on this delution, and your action is karmic action.

You will ask this question:
If I see a naked woman, and if I can maintain "naked woman", how can I have "wanting to touch her"?

If you see naked woman and then you want to touch her, it makes sense, because when your "....." change to ....., at that instant you are deluded, so you want to touch her.

But, if I see "naked woman", how can the appearance of "wanting to touch her" is not a fault?
This is because at that instant you are not deluded.

The appearance of "wanting to touch her" appear not because of your delusion anymore at the present moment, but it appears as the maturity of your previous karmic seed (absolutely uncontrol, remember when your karmic seed ripe, even you hide in the jungle in will just ripe, even buddha can't help you), which has nothing to do with the current one.

Unless that "wanting to touch her" become wanting to touch her, then your past karmic seed end, and you put in new karmic seed.

For deluded person, it almost almost impossible for them to get out from samsara, because when their past karmic seed mature (which here appear as "wanting to touch her"), instead of his ability to just stay in "wanting to touch her", due to his ignorance that "wanting to touch her" becomes wanting to touch her. New seed is implated again in the sense that you again strengthen you delusion.

If you can understand this process, you can understand why samsara is called POISONOUS circle. It almost give you zero change to get out from that. ALMOST ZERO CHANCE.

The appearance of "anger" is not thought. Anger is thought.
The appearance of "I love her" is not feeling. I love her is feeling.
The appearance of "I am angry" is not feeling. I am angry is feeling.
The appearance of "I feel pain" is not feeling. I feel pain is feeling.
The appearance of "That mountain is beautiful" is not perception, That mountain is beautiful is perception.
The appearance of "This is this, or that" is not mind. This is this, or that is mind.
The appearance of "body" is not aggregate. Body is aggregate.

When you can just in "........" instead of ........, DUE TO YOUR FULL WISDOM, you reach the state of no perception, no feeling, no birth, no death, no arising, no cessation. Liberation is in you at that moment. Nirvana is in you at that moment.

(Sometimes that state is called the deathless or anything, the meaning is more important here).

Now, you will think that it is not a difficult task to be just "..........", to be just like a mirror can reflect anything like "......." instead of .........

It is the most difficult thing to do in reality

Only Buddha and arhat and high bodhisattvas can do that. Only them can be always in the state of "......" and never ignorantly fall to ..........

You need many many many life times to master that.

In order to master that prevention from "........" to ........, you must realize:
1. Emptiness, which means you can see perfectly "......" is in the nature of illusion, in the nature of reflection of the moon in the water, in the nature of mirage.
2. Zero doubt
3. Perfect samadhi, not even a single instant you fall from "....." to ......

Ajahn Chah said this reality has no problem, but when you poke it, you will be in trouble.

"......." is just ".....", no problem.

But if due to your ignorant ".......", you poke this "......." to ........, you will be in deep trouble.

However, it is a dream for us to be always in this "......" in whatever situations, if we do not realize the teaching of emptiness (vipassana wisdom) and do not have the power of samadhi to maintain that Vipassana realization (which is the realization of emptiness).
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: The Buddha/arahants/jhana and pain

Postby kirk5a » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:28 am

danieLion wrote:
kirk5a wrote:"Experience" is just a word....

Hi Kirk,
You're committing the same error you did with "sensation."

Experience is more than just a word. I think it's better to say most experience occurs on a non-verbal level.

Yes I agree, that's why I used the "" quotation marks, because I was talking about the word - "experience."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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