Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

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robertk
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Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby robertk » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:57 pm


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Ben
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby Ben » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:23 am

Hi Robert,

I know you are skeptical of meditation methods. So, how do we know these dhammas as being real according to the Nikayas and ancient commentaries?
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Ben
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby Ben » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:23 am

Hi Robert,

I know you are skeptical of meditation methods. So, how do we know these dhammas as being real according to the Nikayas and ancient commentaries?
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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retrofuturist
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:27 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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robertk
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby robertk » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:53 am

Dear ben and retro,

QUOTE from commentary to mulapariyaya:
The "uninstructed worldling" (p40 of Mulapariyaya) "needs to be taught, because he possesses neither learning(agama) nor achievement. For he who possesses neither the learning running counter to the activity of conceiving because he has neglected to study, question, and discriminate the aggregates (khandhas), elements, sense bases (ayatanas) truths, law of conditionality and foundations of mindfulness
etc , '.

So the problem with the buddhist of today, IMHO, is that they want to rush in and experience reality, or more precisely What they "feel" reality is, without enough basis in right view. And right view is totattly dependent on sufficient, careful, and right study of the true Dhamma.
Without very firm right view one could go on a path of having profound experiences, see the most subtle levels of rupa or nama. But still be misperceving them.

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robertk
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby robertk » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:55 am

These are the steps
(speculation is not a good translation but you get the idea)
M II, no 95, Cankiisutta.

It is long, for the whole sutta:
<http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/
Majjhima2/095-canki-e1.html >

'Good Gotama, now, I know the realising of the truth. How is this attained? Good Gotama, teach me that attainment and realization.'

'Bharadvàja, practising, developing and making much of those same things lead to the realization of the truth. I declare that the realization of the truth is this much.'

'Good Gotama, now I know the realising of the truth. What things are of much help for realising the truth?'

'Bharadvàja, the fourfold endeavour is of much help for the realisation of the truth. If not for the fourfold endeavour, the realisation of the truth is not. Therefore the fourfold endeavour is of much help for the realisation of the truth.'

'Good Gotama, for the fourfold endeavour, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, weighing [1] is of much help for the fourfold endeavour. Without the weighing there is no fourfold effort, therefore weighing is of much help for the fourfold endeavour.'

'Good Gotama, for weighing, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, struggling [2] is of much help for weighing. Without that struggle there is no weighing, therefore that struggle is of much help for weighing'

'Good Gotama, for struggling, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, interest, is of much help for struggling. Without that interest, there is no struggle, therefore that interest is of much help for struggling.'

'Good Gotama, for interest, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, rightful speculation [3] is of much help for interest. Without the rightful speculating mind, there is no interest, therefore the rightful speculative mind is of much help for interest.'

'Good Gotama, for a rightful speculative mind, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, examining the meanings in the Teaching, is of much help for a rightful speculative mind. Without that examining of meanings in the Teaching, there is norightful speculation, therefore examining
meanings in the Teaching is of much help for a speculative mind.'

'Good Gotama, for examining meanings in the Teaching, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, bearing the Teaching in the mind, is of much help for examining meanings in the Teaching. Without bearing the Teaching in mind, there is no examination of meanings, therefore bearing the Teaching in mind is of much help for examining meanings in the Teaching.'

'Good Gotama, for bearing the Teaching in the mind, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, listening to the Teaching, is of much help for bearing the Teaching in the mind. Without listening to the Teaching, there is no bearing of the Teaching, therefore listening to the Teaching, is of much help for bearing the Teaching in the mind.'

'Good Gotama, for listening to the Teaching, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, lending ear, is of much help for listening to the Teaching. Without lending ear there is no listening to the Teaching, therefore, lending ear, is of much help for listening to the Teaching.'

'Good Gotama, for lending ear, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, associating, is of much help for lending ear. Without association there is no lending ears, therefore associating is of much help for lending ear.'

'Good Gotama, for associating, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, approaching, is of much help for associating Without an approach there is no association, therefore approaching is of much help for associating.'

'Good Gotama, for approaching, what thing is of much help?'

'Bharadvàja, faith, is of much help for approaching Without faith there is no approaching, therefore faith is of much help for approaching.'...

[1] Weighing is of much help for the fourfold endeavour (padhànassa kho bharadvàja tulanà bahukàrà). The fourfold endeavours are pushing the mind forward earnestly, to dispel arisen demerit to promote non arising of not arisen demerit To promote the arising of not arisen merit and to see the development and completion of arisen merit. For this kind of mental work to happen, we should mentally weigh our activities by body speech and mind. We should be aware of the activities at the six doors of mental contact.

[2] Struggling is of much help for weighing (tulanàya kho bharadvàja ussàho bahukàro hoti). This is a mental struggle. It consists of thinking and pondering to sort out the correct and comes to be right thinking.

[3] Right speculation is of much help for interest (chandassa kho Bharadvàja dhammanijjhànakhanti bahukàrà). Right speculation falls to the category of right thinking. So this is falling to the Noble Eightfold path, with right view at the foremost.
--------

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robertk
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby robertk » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:01 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:09 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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robertk
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby robertk » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:13 am

Inquiry maybe is good.. Havent looked at the pali yet

danieLion
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby danieLion » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:15 am


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robertk
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby robertk » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:19 am


danieLion
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby danieLion » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:21 am

Asking or claiming if the khanda are real is similar to asking or claiming if experience is real, and should also show us that the answer is, "Of course." Right view teaches how to relate to experience, and mindfulness/concentration/effort techniques are simply the tools of relating to experience skillfully.
Best,
Daniel

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mikenz66
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:22 am


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robertk
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby robertk » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:25 am

Well of course all paramattha dhammas, except nibbana are condionted

danieLion
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby danieLion » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:28 am


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robertk
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby robertk » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:42 am


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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby danieLion » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:44 am


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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby danieLion » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:49 am


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robertk
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby robertk » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:53 am


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robertk
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Re: Khandas, dhatus and ayatanas are real

Postby robertk » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:56 am



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