Religion:
a. A naming convention. A convenient conceptual header under which religious people place certain questions and experiences.
b. the institutions that gather and grow around those questions and experiences that religious people place under the header of religion.
c. A political movement
Religious:
a. A egoic identity - "I am a religious person"
b. The experience of a religious impulse and/or religiosity.
Religious impulse:
A movement of the mind. A mind-state. A sensory/conceptual experience that arises as a result of internal/external conditioning. An obscuration.
Religiosity:
Extended or habitual attachment to religious impulse
What is your definition of religion/religious impulse
- pink_trike
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Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse
Last edited by pink_trike on Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:32 am, edited 4 times in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
- pink_trike
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- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
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Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse
Hi zavk,zavk wrote:Hi all,NOTE: This was written for pink_trike in response to his questions in 'Buddhism and Religion'.
This looks juicy and interesting! I'm going to have to clear some time to digest it.
I'm slammed this week so it prolly won't be until this weekend.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse
Thank you Zavk that was a brilliant post. Earlier this morning I was talking to a co-practitioner about practicing Dhamma in daily life (with respect to the little renunciations and serving others) and what I was trying to communicate was a state of mind that borders on Caputo's all experience, has a religious character, .
Because of that, and because of what others have said with regards to the nature of Buddhist experience and how different it is from other conceptions or experiences of religion, I have found it nigh-on-impossible to give much of a meaningful response to Pink's original contention.
Metta
Ben
Because of that, and because of what others have said with regards to the nature of Buddhist experience and how different it is from other conceptions or experiences of religion, I have found it nigh-on-impossible to give much of a meaningful response to Pink's original contention.
Metta
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- pink_trike
- Posts: 1130
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
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Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse
Hi Ben,Ben wrote:Thank you Zavk that was a brilliant post. Earlier this morning I was talking to a co-practitioner about practicing Dhamma in daily life (with respect to the little renunciations and serving others) and what I was trying to communicate was a state of mind that borders on Caputo's all experience, has a religious character, .
Because of that, and because of what others have said with regards to the nature of Buddhist experience and how different it is from other conceptions or experiences of religion, I have found it nigh-on-impossible to give much of a meaningful response to Pink's original contention.
Metta
Ben
Ah, but I do wholeheartedly agree that "all experience, has a ________________ character". I just don't think it is "religious". I might say that it has a "clear" character...though I'm still working on naming that character, being aware that naming is risky business.
But this would be a topic for a different thread.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse
Hi Pink
I understand the issue of the use of terms and how they can be charged for different people or different contexts. Many of my co-practitioners do not define themselves as Buddhist despite taking refuge in triple gem, despite practicing sila, samadhi & panna. Some years ago i relented because it was just much more easier to tell people 'I'm buddhist' or talk with other buddhists. There was at least a frame of reference from which communication could begin. And I figured that if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, farts like a duck, then it must be a duck. My co-practitioners who didn't define themselvs as Buddhist, were really just applying a different label to themselves, whether it was 'meditator', 'vipassana meditator', 'old student' or 'not a buddhist'. These days I do use the term 'buddhist' to describe myself with ease having realised that some of my past attitude towards the term was really about some negativity I had.
So again, 'religion' is a term of convenience. As I have mentioned above and elsewhere, it doesn't contain the range and depth of experience that I would like in a term. But the term is a convenient launching place for more meaningful communication.
Good luck with the naming. No doubt it will be a very valuable experience to explore the notions of religion, transcendence and wisdom in depth.
Metta
Ben
I understand the issue of the use of terms and how they can be charged for different people or different contexts. Many of my co-practitioners do not define themselves as Buddhist despite taking refuge in triple gem, despite practicing sila, samadhi & panna. Some years ago i relented because it was just much more easier to tell people 'I'm buddhist' or talk with other buddhists. There was at least a frame of reference from which communication could begin. And I figured that if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, farts like a duck, then it must be a duck. My co-practitioners who didn't define themselvs as Buddhist, were really just applying a different label to themselves, whether it was 'meditator', 'vipassana meditator', 'old student' or 'not a buddhist'. These days I do use the term 'buddhist' to describe myself with ease having realised that some of my past attitude towards the term was really about some negativity I had.
So again, 'religion' is a term of convenience. As I have mentioned above and elsewhere, it doesn't contain the range and depth of experience that I would like in a term. But the term is a convenient launching place for more meaningful communication.
Good luck with the naming. No doubt it will be a very valuable experience to explore the notions of religion, transcendence and wisdom in depth.
Metta
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse
I think this works as a definitive description of the religious impulse:
from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... toend.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... toend.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(also posted in the other thread)Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:The search for a spiritual path is born out of suffering. It does not start with lights and ecstasy, but with the hard tacks of pain, disappointment, and confusion. However, for suffering to give birth to a genuine spiritual search, it must amount to more than something passively received from without. It has to trigger an inner realization, a perception which pierces through the facile complacency of our usual encounter with the world to glimpse the insecurity perpetually gaping underfoot. When this insight dawns, even if only momentarily, it can precipitate a profound personal crisis. It overturns accustomed goals and values, mocks our routine preoccupations, leaves old enjoyments stubbornly unsatisfying.
At first such changes generally are not welcome. We try to deny our vision and to smother our doubts; we struggle to drive away the discontent with new pursuits. But the flame of inquiry, once lit, continues to burn, and if we do not let ourselves be swept away by superficial readjustments or slouch back into a patched up version of our natural optimism, eventually the original glimmering of insight will again flare up, again confront us with our essential plight. It is precisely at that point, with all escape routes blocked, that we are ready to seek a way to bring our disquietude to an end.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
- pink_trike
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- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
- Contact:
Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse
I would suggest that this only describes teleological motivation.Jechbi wrote:I think this works as a definitive description of the religious impulse:
from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... toend.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;(also posted in the other thread)Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:The search for a spiritual path is born out of suffering. It does not start with lights and ecstasy, but with the hard tacks of pain, disappointment, and confusion. However, for suffering to give birth to a genuine spiritual search, it must amount to more than something passively received from without. It has to trigger an inner realization, a perception which pierces through the facile complacency of our usual encounter with the world to glimpse the insecurity perpetually gaping underfoot. When this insight dawns, even if only momentarily, it can precipitate a profound personal crisis. It overturns accustomed goals and values, mocks our routine preoccupations, leaves old enjoyments stubbornly unsatisfying.
At first such changes generally are not welcome. We try to deny our vision and to smother our doubts; we struggle to drive away the discontent with new pursuits. But the flame of inquiry, once lit, continues to burn, and if we do not let ourselves be swept away by superficial readjustments or slouch back into a patched up version of our natural optimism, eventually the original glimmering of insight will again flare up, again confront us with our essential plight. It is precisely at that point, with all escape routes blocked, that we are ready to seek a way to bring our disquietude to an end.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse
As opposed to what?
On further reflection I don't understand why you say that. Please explain.
On further reflection I don't understand why you say that. Please explain.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse
Theological motivation? And where god mentioned in these two paragraphs? This exactly the point I made about the First Noble Truth as a motivating factor, as the basis for the religious endeavor.pink_trike wrote:I would suggest that this only describes teleological motivation.Jechbi wrote:I think this works as a definitive description of the religious impulse:
from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... toend.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;(also posted in the other thread)Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:The search for a spiritual path is born out of suffering. It does not start with lights and ecstasy, but with the hard tacks of pain, disappointment, and confusion. However, for suffering to give birth to a genuine spiritual search, it must amount to more than something passively received from without. It has to trigger an inner realization, a perception which pierces through the facile complacency of our usual encounter with the world to glimpse the insecurity perpetually gaping underfoot. When this insight dawns, even if only momentarily, it can precipitate a profound personal crisis. It overturns accustomed goals and values, mocks our routine preoccupations, leaves old enjoyments stubbornly unsatisfying.
At first such changes generally are not welcome. We try to deny our vision and to smother our doubts; we struggle to drive away the discontent with new pursuits. But the flame of inquiry, once lit, continues to burn, and if we do not let ourselves be swept away by superficial readjustments or slouch back into a patched up version of our natural optimism, eventually the original glimmering of insight will again flare up, again confront us with our essential plight. It is precisely at that point, with all escape routes blocked, that we are ready to seek a way to bring our disquietude to an end.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse
I think he's saying teleological, as in the ends justify the means. But I'm not sure how he's using the term exactly.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
- Fede
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Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse
clw_uk wrote:Hey Fede
Do you include communism, socialism, peta etc as religion?It merely means a person devotes themselves to a specific calling.
Metta
From:religion
• noun 1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. 2 a particular system of faith and worship. 3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion.
— ORIGIN originally in the sense life under monastic vows: from Latin religio ‘obligation, reverence’.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/or ... on?view=uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Look at definition #3.....
It's up to the person ascribing themselves to those views....Politics and religion are very close bedfellows....have been for millennia.
Whilst I personally may not call those specific "paths" 'religions', it's possible others do....and I have heard someone say that Communism was their religion.
So, it's up to the individual to state their own system....
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.
Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!
Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself.
I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?!
http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!
Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself.
I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?!
http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse
Yes. My mistake. Needing my perscription updated.Jechbi wrote:I think he's saying teleological, as in the ends justify the means. But I'm not sure how he's using the term exactly.
And I agree. He needs to explain what looks to be a rather idionsyncratic usage of "teleological."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- pink_trike
- Posts: 1130
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
- Contact:
Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse
In the field of Psychology the word is often used to describe an innate impulse in all living beings to move toward the end state of homeostasis or balance.tiltbillings wrote:And I agree. He needs to explain what looks to be a rather idionsyncratic usage of "teleological."Jechbi wrote:I think he's saying teleological, as in the ends justify the means. But I'm not sure how he's using the term exactly.
Dukkha (dissatisfaction) triggers this impulse.
Last edited by pink_trike on Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse
In other words you're saying the religious impulse is the motivation to end dukkha?pink_trike wrote:In the field of Psychology the word is often used to describe an innate impulse in all living beings to move toward the end state of homeostasis or balance. Dukkha (dissatisfaction) triggers this impulse.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
- pink_trike
- Posts: 1130
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
- Contact:
Re: What is your definition of religion/religious impulse
No, I'm saying that the religious impulse renders the teleological impulse impotent. This is better understood if we view the religious impulse as a manifestation of religious materialism.Jechbi wrote:In other words you're saying the religious impulse is the motivation to end dukkha?pink_trike wrote:In the field of Psychology the word is often used to describe an innate impulse in all living beings to move toward the end state of homeostasis or balance. Dukkha (dissatisfaction) triggers this impulse.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.