Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:51 am

bodom wrote:What about narcotic pain relievers sold by pharmacists?

: anjali:

I think there's a difference between selling drugs that, while occasionally used for intoxication, are designed specifically to treat serious diseases and selling plants that, while occasionally used for serious diseases, are designed specifically for intoxication.

I don't doubt that marijuana can help people with pain, and I would never mean to criticize a cancer patient or AIDS victim for using intoxicants in such a way - however, coming from a medical marijuana state, I can definitely say with confidence that many people, perhaps the majority, use these dispensaries for vague ailments like "anxiety" or "back pain" in order to legally obtain marijuana for smoking in a recreational manner. I've heard the same from the dispensary owners, who are good people, but on the whole they seem to be far more interested in just getting cannabis to people. I remember a quote from a man who ran one near Seattle, and he said that he would be able to run any kind of real business if he could only deal with people who had legitimate health issues that marijuana could alleviate.

If you work at a dispensary, you are going to sell quite a bit of marijuana to people who will use it for unwholesome purposes. I think that's what it comes down to. It might not be your job to examine other people's motivations, but I don't know if it's wholesome to sell something that can be so easily and inevitably misused and then claim that you have no culpability because you couldn't be absolutely sure they were without the best intentions.


I may have been premature to claim that it is a violation of right livelihood. That's your decision to make. I certainly, however, I would stay away from such industries. I don't mean to sound holier than thou at all, it's just something that strikes me in a weird way. I'm sure you could hold a position there and, with the right intentions, not harm your practice.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby manas » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:16 am

danieLion wrote:
manas wrote:For example, there is enough paracetamol in a standard pack of 'panadol' tablets (a common pain reliever) to destroy an adult liver. Of course there are instructions to not exceed the correct dosage, but this is just one example of a drug that is considered 'ok' to be sold everywhere, but, that if misused, could cause death. So I can't see what the big deal is about using marijuana medically.

Doctors around here love to prescribe medical pot on account of it's one of the only substances they can prescribe that doesn't come with a possible side effect OF DEATH!
Best,
Daniel
Yes, that is a rather nasty possible side effect of many drugs peddled by Big Pharma.

manas :anjali:
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Annapurna » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:18 am

marc108 wrote:i really believe this depends how each state handles it. if it's being sold for legitimate medicinal reasons (which there are few) and properly regulated marijuana is no different than other drugs or herbs that are intoxicants if abused.

where i live in California, medical marijuana is a joke... you can get a license for use here as long as you have 30 minutes and 50$. i would think that selling marijuana at most American dispensaries would be wrong livelihood.


Yes, it depends.

Cannabis is illegal here, so you need a prescription from a MD and he has to justify his choice and the patient has to buy it in a pharmacy and carry a permission to show to the police, in case a police dogs sniffs the scent and barks him down and stuff.

To sell that as a pharmacist is not wrong livelihood, it's providing medicine and happens very, very rarely.

Likewise, medicine that contains some alcohol is not an intoxicant, where you get drunk and heedless from, but you take a few drops to help you with an illness.

Neither wrong livelihood to produce, nor, to pass it on to a patient.

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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Caraka » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:28 pm

Funny how you can replace marijuana with gun or other objects, and have exact same discussion. :tongue:

I would like to ask you to think of why the 5 percepts was defined, what do you think was the goal? The reason behind?
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:10 pm

Caraka wrote:Funny how you can replace marijuana with gun or other objects, and have exact same discussion. :tongue:

I would like to ask you to think of why the 5 percepts was defined, what do you think was the goal? The reason behind?


This is true, how it is related to similar debates about guns, meat, etc. (One person might purchase a gun to kill and another might use a gun strictly for Olympic style paper target shooting.) This is because in Buddhism it is about intention. This is what separates Buddhism from Jainism. In Jainism these things might be considered bad in all possible ways with no flexibility even for intention.

The precepts are for the goal of liberation, but along the way we might get sick, we might still be an ordinary worldling, and engage in some activities that a liberated person may not do, including sexual relations. Even monks are allowed to take medicine. The intention is for getting well, sustaining the body, not for recreation.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby danieLion » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:12 am

marc108 wrote:i really believe this depends how each state handles it. if it's being sold for legitimate medicinal reasons (which there are few) and properly regulated marijuana is no different than other drugs or herbs that are intoxicants if abused.

where i live in California, medical marijuana is a joke... you can get a license for use here as long as you have 30 minutes and 50$. i would think that selling marijuana at most American dispensaries would be wrong livelihood.

Hi marc108,
The "one bad apple" argument has never been a good reason to illegalize anything with medicinal properties, even if the one bad apple is a bunch of pot-heads in California.
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Daniel
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby danieLion » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:23 am

manas wrote:
danieLion wrote:
manas wrote:For example, there is enough paracetamol in a standard pack of 'panadol' tablets (a common pain reliever) to destroy an adult liver. Of course there are instructions to not exceed the correct dosage, but this is just one example of a drug that is considered 'ok' to be sold everywhere, but, that if misused, could cause death. So I can't see what the big deal is about using marijuana medically.

Doctors around here love to prescribe medical pot on account of it's one of the only substances they can prescribe that doesn't come with a possible side effect OF DEATH!
Best,
Daniel
Yes, that is a rather nasty possible side effect of many drugs peddled by Big Pharma.

manas :anjali:

Antidepressants are intoxicants, yet the Buddhists who admit to using them never, AFIK, bring their use up as a fifth precept violation! Antidepressants are as addictive if not more addictive than opiates, and way more addictive than cannabis. The list of anti-depressant side effects is astonishing. They're very seductive because they can bring some relief, but what they do to the brain with long-term use is scary.

Point: if antidepressants were as great as your pharmaceutically indoctrinated physicians and television commercials claim, they wouldn't keep coming out with new ones.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby marc108 » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:44 am

danieLion wrote:
marc108 wrote:i really believe this depends how each state handles it. if it's being sold for legitimate medicinal reasons (which there are few) and properly regulated marijuana is no different than other drugs or herbs that are intoxicants if abused.

where i live in California, medical marijuana is a joke... you can get a license for use here as long as you have 30 minutes and 50$. i would think that selling marijuana at most American dispensaries would be wrong livelihood.

Hi marc108,
The "one bad apple" argument has never been a good reason to illegalize anything with medicinal properties, even if the one bad apple is a bunch of pot-heads in California.
Best,
Daniel



I'm all for the use of cannabis medicinally. I think the restriction of any safe substance for medicinal use is grotesque! I just think in order for it to become accepted as medicine, it will have to be regulated with the same level of seriousness as other drugs. You can't even buy a standardized alcohol tincture here!
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Annapurna » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:01 am

Caraka wrote:Funny how you can replace marijuana with gun or other objects, and have exact same discussion. :tongue:

I would like to ask you to think of why the 5 percepts was defined, what do you think was the goal? The reason behind?


To avoid doing harm to others and thus-oneself via karmic repercussion.
Thus enabling to exit the wheel or rebirth.

Here are some links about medical Cannabis.

http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=& ... VtFx8Y1QrQ
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Annapurna » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:02 am

Marc, try this link by all means. There is a standardized medicine....
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Aloka » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:09 am

manas wrote: One thing in it's favour is that, even when misused, it kills a negligible amount of people as compared with many other drugs. (Last I heard, there were actually zero recorded cases of natural marijuana causing death, as compared with alcohol's millions of deaths per year, for example). And in case anyone thinks I am an apologist for weed, I'm not; because while it doesn't actually kill anyone directly, it does, over the long-term, reduce a person's intelligence, motivation and mindfulness, and is best avoided if possible. So of course I would never advocate marijuana being used for recreational purposes...only medical.



It may not kill people but its been linked to schizophrenia and psychosis.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120508112748.htm

http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby amtross » Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:58 pm

I had a friend with Rheumatoid Arthritis that hated getting high but she ingested MJ (had a prescription) because it was the only effective relief she could find. RA is extremely painful. Providing someone in this kind of need with medicine that helps them is compassionate!
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby danieLion » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:48 pm

Aloka wrote:
manas wrote: One thing in it's favour is that, even when misused, it kills a negligible amount of people as compared with many other drugs. (Last I heard, there were actually zero recorded cases of natural marijuana causing death, as compared with alcohol's millions of deaths per year, for example). And in case anyone thinks I am an apologist for weed, I'm not; because while it doesn't actually kill anyone directly, it does, over the long-term, reduce a person's intelligence, motivation and mindfulness, and is best avoided if possible. So of course I would never advocate marijuana being used for recreational purposes...only medical.


It may not kill people but its been linked to schizophrenia and psychosis.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120508112748.htm

http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html

Hi Aloka,

Did you actually look at those REEFER MADNESS studies? Pot use is no more "linked" to schizophrenia and psychosis than tap water.

Harry J. Anslinger would be proud:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marihuana_Tax_Act_of_1937
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Anslinger
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_Madness

Furthermore, schizophrenia (and psychosis for that matter) is still very little understood.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Aloka » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:53 am

danieLion wrote: Hi Aloka,

Did you actually look at those REEFER MADNESS studies? Pot use is no more "linked" to schizophrenia and psychosis than tap water.



My links weren't from "Reefer Madness" studies. Furthermore I used to smoke some cannabis myself as a student and saw first hand some of my fellow students develop mental health problems as a result of heavy cannabis smoking. I also saw the same thing happen to a couple of musicians I knew.

Additionally the 'skunk' available to kids on the streets today is incredibly powerful stuff .

I'm speaking now from my personal experience and observation, not from statistics and the media.


.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:36 am

Hi Daniel,
danieLion wrote: Pot use is no more "linked" to schizophrenia and psychosis than tap water.

In the personal experience of people I know well, you are misinformed.

:anjali:
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby danieLion » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:42 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Daniel,
danieLion wrote: Pot use is no more "linked" to schizophrenia and psychosis than tap water.

In the personal experience of people I know well, you are misinformed.

:anjali:
Mike

Hi Mike,
How did they rule out confounding variables (e.g., tap water)?
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby danieLion » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:52 am

danieLion wrote: Hi Aloka,

Did you actually look at those REEFER MADNESS studies? Pot use is no more "linked" to schizophrenia and psychosis than tap water.



Aloka wrote:Additionally the 'skunk' available to kids on the streets today is incredibly powerful stuff .

Hi Aloka,
That's what people who use it medicinally call progress.

And: what "streets"? Which "kids"?
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:15 am

Hi Daniel,
Clearly you're not willing to take seriously the experiences that Aloka and I have of seriously disturbed people whose problems were clearly triggered by marijuana use. For obvious reasons I'm not going to elaborate on the details, so I'll bow out at this point.

:anjali:
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby danieLion » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:27 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Daniel,
Clearly you're not willing to take seriously the experiences that Aloka and I have of seriously disturbed people whose problems were clearly triggered by marijuana use. For obvious reasons I'm not going to elaborate on the details, so I'll bow out at this point.

:anjali:
Mike

Hi Mike,
That's disappointing.

The cause(s) of schizophrenia have been debated for years and the debate continues to grow.

The history of this debate It is CLEARLY incongruent with ANY ALLEGED CAUSE(S) of schizophrenia, cannabis included.

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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby marc108 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:42 pm

lets also be clear here that the dose makes the medicine. most people who are using cannabis for legitimate medical reasons are not consuming at the same high amounts as recreational users. looking at your pothead friends and trying to make a judgement based on that, is akin to looking at a heroin abuser and trying to make a judgement on opiate based painkillers.


there are plenty of medicinal herbs that will cause issues in high doses. cannabis in small, controlled dosing is extremely unlikely to cause problems in the average person. cannabis can also be combined with other herbs to attenuate some of the 'dulling' effects it can have on the mind & memory with chronic use. it is, without a doubt, extremely safe if used properly.

mikenz66 wrote:problems were clearly triggered by marijuana use.


use? or abuse?
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