SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

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Spiny Norman
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Post by Spiny Norman »

Caraka wrote:What is dart(s)?
It's a reference to the Arrow Sutta, here is a brief extract:

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental."
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

porpoise wrote:
Caraka wrote:What is dart(s)?
It's a reference to the Arrow Sutta, here is a brief extract:

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental."
Sounds good on the surface, but my personal experience has been that if pain is ignored and medical care not sought, the disease processes progress and knee buckling physical pain makes one experience fear for the worsening of the pain. Death if painless is never feared, but a lingering, painful death is always feared. Hence the development of narcotics.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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NoMoreSnoozeBar
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Post by NoMoreSnoozeBar »

Ron-The-Elder wrote:
porpoise wrote:
Caraka wrote:What is dart(s)?
It's a reference to the Arrow Sutta, here is a brief extract:

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental."
Sounds good on the surface, but my personal experience has been that if pain is ignored and medical care not sought, the disease processes progress and knee buckling physical pain makes one experience fear for the worsening of the pain. Death if painless is never feared, but a lingering, painful death is always feared. Hence the development of narcotics.
Well, I don't think that the sutta excerpt is calling for one to ignore a physical pain, but not to add to a physical pain with mental anguish. I would think that with insight and mindfulness, understanding and moving to alleviate causes of physical pain would be more possible.

Be well!

~Chris
Metta,

~Chris

:anjali:

Hitting the snooze bar of life may seem easier, but practicing toward awakening is a much better idea.

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danieLion
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Post by danieLion »

Mike,
Thanks for posting this. Very useful.

All,
I intend to read all the links and listen to all the talks before I say much but I have one preliminary question.

Are we aiming for a one-to-one correspondence from Pali to English? I know no one's stated it, but it seems like an underlying assumption of the participants of this discussion.

Best,
Daniel
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mikenz66
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Daniel,
danieLion wrote: I intend to read all the links and listen to all the talks before I say much but I have one preliminary question.
Yes, there is a lot in this sutta, and those talks give various useful perspectives.
danieLion wrote: Are we aiming for a one-to-one correspondence from Pali to English? I know no one's stated it, but it seems like an underlying assumption of the participants of this discussion.
I think it's unlikely it will work well, particularly for words like dukkha or sankhara. However, I'm not completely sure what you are referring to. Speaking generally, what I sometimes see as problematical is to fixate on a particular English term, and then reading things into it that are not justified by the Pali term. In the case of dukkha, if we take "suffering" too literally as the translation then it seems puzzling when we read that dukkha can be associated with pleasant of neutral experiences.

:anjali:
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Post by Spiny Norman »

Sam Vega wrote:The word dukhata is the abstract noun for the state of suffering
I'm trying to work out what it means to say that dukkhata is an abstract noun. :thinking:
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Post by Sam Vara »

porpoise wrote:
Sam Vega wrote:The word dukhata is the abstract noun for the state of suffering
I'm trying to work out what it means to say that dukkhata is an abstract noun. :thinking:
Hi porpoise,

It means that it is the general term for something that cannot be known in its totality via the senses. The opposite of a concrete noun, which refers to one specific thing or class of things. So if you want to translate it as "suffering", then it is suffering in general, rather than one specific instance of suffering like "my anxiety" or "your toothache". If you want to translate it as "wrongness", then it is the abstract conception of wrongness, rather than one specific instance of a particular thing being wrong.
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Post by Spiny Norman »

Sam Vega wrote:
porpoise wrote:
Sam Vega wrote:The word dukhata is the abstract noun for the state of suffering
I'm trying to work out what it means to say that dukkhata is an abstract noun. :thinking:
Hi porpoise,

It means that it is the general term for something that cannot be known in its totality via the senses. The opposite of a concrete noun, which refers to one specific thing or class of things. So if you want to translate it as "suffering", then it is suffering in general, rather than one specific instance of suffering like "my anxiety" or "your toothache". If you want to translate it as "wrongness", then it is the abstract conception of wrongness, rather than one specific instance of a particular thing being wrong.
Thanks - possibly I'm overthinking this! So if dukkhata means suffering in a generic, non-specific sense, then 3 types of dukkha we're discussing are specific categories / types? Or different levels?
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mikenz66
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Porpoise,

Yes, I think you're over thinking it. I'm no Pali expert but you'll find that when applied to something in particular the word dukkha or dukkhaṃ is used:
Jātipi dukkhā jarāpi dukkhā maraṇampi dukkhaṃ,
Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful.
In that case it seems to be acting as an adjective.

Whereas dukkhata would be "stressfulness" if we continue to use Thanissaro's translation.

I think that the point to take away from this is that the "Pali terms" that are commonly quoted are not necessarily the forms you'll see if you look in the suttas. Pali has complicated verb forms and so on, like Latin or Greek, so it's easy to get baffled when looking at the Pali and wondering "where does it say X?"

:anjali:
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Re: SN 45.165: Dukkhata Sutta — Suffering

Post by danieLion »

mikenz66 wrote:Some discussions of the three types of dukkha:...Andrea Fella: http://www.audiodharma.org/talks/audio_player/2485.html..." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
Andrea Fella elaborates:

Streams:

The Four Noble Truths [1 of 1]
The Truth of Dukkha [1 of 2]

Dukkha as a Teacher

Using Suffering as a Guide
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