Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

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Son
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by Son »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Son,
Son wrote:What's more, sometimes I see people equating Saha world to Jambudvipa, and then sometimes describing the Saha world as our galaxy... From what I understand--and please correct me--the Buddha used the term "saha world" very ambiguously.
The Buddha didn't use this term. AFAIK, it is from Mahayana Mahaparinirvana sutra:
http://www.nirvanasutra.net/nirvanasutraa2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Also isn't it made clear that humans live on all four continents around Meru?
Yes, it is made clear.

Many Buddhist terms gradually changed their meaning, being transferred between countries and generations.
That's what I went with instinctively. Thank you for the authoritative information. It always disheartens me to hear people speaking that way about those teachings, completely out of hand and off base. So my motive in that question was to be able to dissuade others from that, because it ruins wisdom (path) and mental cultivation (merit). Thanks.
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gavesako
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by gavesako »

Maps of Ancient Buddhist India

Anotattasaro ca Sinerupabbato ca
Mount Neru and Lake Anotatta

The Buddha is said to have traversed the great distance from Uruvelā to the Himālayas to spend the day at Lake Anotatta during the time he was trying to convert the Uruvelā Kassapa, shortly after the Awakening, but the latter was still not convinced of the Buddha's superiority. It is mentioned as one of the seven great lakes in the Himālayas.01

In the same Aṅguttara discourse Mount Sineru is mentioned as the King of Mountains (Pabbatarājā). The mountain is also known in the Pāḷi texts as Neru, Mahāmeru, Meru and Kelasa. It is identified now with Mount Kailash in western Tibet. The Lake Anotatta, which is identified with Lake Manasarovar is on the rocky plains (silātala) in front of the mountain range.

Sineru takes on mythical proportions in the Commentaries, where the Tāvatiṁsa Heaven in said to be positioned on its summit, and the abode of the Demons at its base.

http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/M ... Sineru.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Assaji
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by Assaji »

gavesako wrote:In the same Aṅguttara discourse Mount Sineru is mentioned as the King of Mountains (Pabbatarājā). The mountain is also known in the Pāḷi texts as Neru, Mahāmeru, Meru and Kelasa. It is identified now with Mount Kailash in western Tibet. The Lake Anotatta, which is identified with Lake Manasarovar is on the rocky plains (silātala) in front of the mountain range.
In Pali sources, Sineru and Kelasa are two different mountains:

http://www.vipassana.info/s/sineru.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.vipassana.info/ku/kelaasa.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's only in some later (Tibetan) sources that Sineru is identified with Kelasa.
Sineru takes on mythical proportions in the Commentaries, where the Tāvatiṁsa Heaven in said to be positioned on its summit, and the abode of the Demons at its base.
Sineru is indeed very big, with another "abode" at the bottom:
http://uvs-model.com/pictures/earth_magnetosphere.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by sutira »

Dmytro wrote:
gavesako wrote:In the same Aṅguttara discourse Mount Sineru is mentioned as the King of Mountains (Pabbatarājā). The mountain is also known in the Pāḷi texts as Neru, Mahāmeru, Meru and Kelasa. It is identified now with Mount Kailash in western Tibet. The Lake Anotatta, which is identified with Lake Manasarovar is on the rocky plains (silātala) in front of the mountain range.
In Pali sources, Sineru and Kelasa are two different mountains:

http://www.vipassana.info/s/sineru.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.vipassana.info/ku/kelaasa.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's only in some later (Tibetan) sources that Sineru is identified with Kelasa.
In traditional Hindu text, it specifically states that Mt Kailash lies to the south of Mt Sineru. So they can't be the same mountain.

Braja Bihārī Kumāra and S.M. Ali, among other scholars, identify Mt Meru with Pamir Knot in Tajikistan.
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by whynotme »

There is Chinese Agamas which many part similar to Nikaya, there is part describe human on other continent lives 1000 year. No human on Earth lives 1000 year

And where is my naga? Is it live in Ocean or not?
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by Assaji »

whynotme wrote:There is Chinese Agamas which many part similar to Nikaya, there is part describe human on other continent lives 1000 year. No human on Earth lives 1000 year
In Pali Nikayas there are no such figures.
And where is my naga? Is it live in Ocean or not?
That's a good question, but on the different topic.
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by Sylvester »

Dmytro wrote:
Son wrote:Why would any of them travel to America I wonder? Is that mentioned? I mean, besides the abundant natural beauty.
Probably because it was a good place to collect alms.
I recall reading a translation of the Commentary to MN 81, that the Buddha Kassapa observed the customs of Uttarakura in removing the thatch from Ghatikara's house, without first asking.

Could you confirm if such a narrative exists?
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by whynotme »

Dmytro wrote:
whynotme wrote:There is Chinese Agamas which many part similar to Nikaya, there is part describe human on other continent lives 1000 year. No human on Earth lives 1000 year
In Pali Nikayas there are no such figures.
Thanks for that infos.

AFAIK, there isn't any detail explaination about the continents, sienru, devas in the Nikaya, ie the hourglass shape of the sineru, alls are comments or later works.

But there is a long suttas in Dīrgha Āgama describes about human in other continents, and it is said that Agamas is corresponds to Nikaya when Buddism was spreaded to the North using Sankrit. The Chinese copied them in their language and most of the Sankrit works are lost. As a researcher how do you rate Agamas source compare to Pali?

Regards
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by Assaji »

whynotme wrote:Thanks for that infos.
You are welcome.
AFAIK, there isn't any detail explaination about the continents, sienru, devas in the Nikaya, ie the hourglass shape of the sineru, alls are comments or later works.
Yes, indeed.
But there is a long suttas in Dīrgha Āgama describes about human in other continents, and it is said that Agamas is corresponds to Nikaya when Buddism was spreaded to the North using Sankrit. The Chinese copied them in their language and most of the Sankrit works are lost. As a researcher how do you rate Agamas source compare to Pali?
Chinese Agamas were mostly translated from Middle Indo Ariyan ("Prakrit") languages of several Buddhist schools, for example, from Gandhari language. It happened even before the advent of Sanskritization: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3215" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The very first Chinese translations were made from Central Asian languages: http://books.google.com/books?id=Cgdkb2 ... 1&pg=PA126" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mahayana sutras were translated to Chinese from Sanskrit.

On one hand, Chinese Agamas have much more later insertions. On the other hand, they have undergone less stylization, conversion to stock passages, so the "raw" structure of the text is often preserved.

Regards, Dmytro
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by Sylvester »

Sylvester wrote:
Dmytro wrote:
Son wrote:Why would any of them travel to America I wonder? Is that mentioned? I mean, besides the abundant natural beauty.
Probably because it was a good place to collect alms.
I recall reading a translation of the Commentary to MN 81, that the Buddha Kassapa observed the customs of Uttarakura in removing the thatch from Ghatikara's house, without first asking.

Could you confirm if such a narrative exists?
My mistake - I saw this narrative, not in the Pali Commentaries, but in the Agama parallels to MN 81.
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by whynotme »

Many thanks Dmytro,

I want to ask this: I read in Vinaya about the first Council collected 5 Nikayas which means include Khuddaka Nikaya. But some books said only 4 Nikayas were collected after the first Council, the Khuddaka was a later collection. It might be there are some typos or mistranslations and I don't have any clue, .
Can you share some light about this?

Regards.
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by Assaji »

whynotme wrote:I want to ask this: I read in Vinaya about the first Council collected 5 Nikayas which means include Khuddaka Nikaya. But some books said only 4 Nikayas were collected after the first Council, the Khuddaka was a later collection. It might be there are some typos or mistranslations and I don't have any clue, .
Can you share some light about this?
Khuddaka Nikaya, in its present form, has been formed on the Third Council, and includes some obviously later works, such as the "Questions of Milinda".
On the other hand, evidently there was some earlier form of Khuddaka Nikaya, which included early texts.

These questions deviate from the topic of this thread, so it would be better to discuss them in separate threads.
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by mikenz66 »

Dmytro wrote:present form, has been formed on the Third Council, and includes some obviously later works, such as the "Questions of Milinda".
On the other hand, evidently there was some earlier form of Khuddaka Nikaya, which included early texts

These questions deviate from the topic of this thread, so it would be better to discuss them in separate threads.
Yes, see, for example:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=12663" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
for discussions of the ancientness of parts of the Sutta Nipata, for example.

:anjali:
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by whynotme »

Many thanks
Dmytro wrote: These questions deviate from the topic of this thread, so it would be better to discuss them in separate threads.
Oh my bad

Regards
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by cittaanurakkho »

Dmytro wrote: What mountain, invisible to human eyes, can be located on the North Pole, submerged deep into the ocean, in the form of the inverted cone?

This is the form of the magnetic axis of the Earth:
Any mentioned of aurora in the Pali text or elsewhere? Could be the radiant deva?
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