Aggregate?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Aggregate?

Postby Sylvester » Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:58 am


User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Aggregate?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:04 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Aggregate?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:14 am


User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Aggregate?

Postby robertk » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:19 am


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Aggregate?

Postby Sylvester » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:20 am

Stop being such a drama queen. I do not ask you to ditch. I simply recommend you put it aside for now, and address your mind to those 3 suttas that are inconsistent with the 3 Venerables' cognition models.

I will be upfront about my reservations concerning their models, particularly where it concerns papañca. I will grant that in Mahayana, prapañca has a more insiduous role in ALL forms of cognition and perception. It's blamed for the Sarva's Dharma theory that endows dharmas with svabhava, such that prapañca spills beyond the constructions of selfhood.

However, I've done quite a comprehensive survey of the electronic Pali Canon for papañca and papañceti in their various guises. At least in the Pali Canon, this phenomenon is maligned only in self-construction, but not in existential ruminations. It is not papañca in Early Buddhism to take a position as to whether or not states exist. Papañca certainly is a condition for the arising of contact, given its close connection to the anusayas, but there is nothing in Early Buddhism to say that an Aggregate can only arise if papañca is active (as in present tense 'is'). One of the great gaps in Ven Nanavira's model of DO is his silence on the locative absolute construction of idappacayata - the pre-awakening sankharas of an Arahant is enough to cause the Aggregates to arise post-awakening.

If you wish to reject the grammatical peculiarity of idappacayata as a red-herring, pls do so, but at least account for the rejection on same ground.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Aggregate?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:43 am

Greetings Sylvester,

I appreciate your transparency regarding the origins of your reservations, but they are not reservations I share because (from the perspective of the Dhamma) I am completely indifferent as to whether things exist or not - as my reckoning will have no bearing on what is true in that regard. Taking the "vertical view" and restricting it to "the all" (sabba), such concerns do not penetrate.

Accordingly, I do not lean one way or the other, or feel any drive to protect realism from idealism, or vice versa. Thus, all this Mahayana, Sarvastiva, svabhava, three time periods etc. business that seems of importance to you, does not find any relevance with me.

Take care.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Aggregate?

Postby Sylvester » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:53 am


User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: Aggregate?

Postby ground » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:54 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Aggregate?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:00 am


User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Aggregate?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:03 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Aggregate?

Postby Sylvester » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:05 am


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Aggregate?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:10 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Aggregate?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:11 am


User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Aggregate?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:13 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Aggregate?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:15 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Aggregate?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:19 am


User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Aggregate?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:26 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Aggregate?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:27 am

Greeting Tilt,

Well you shouldn't have asked a fourth time, should you?

If you feel it is appropriate to renege on such explicitly made stipulations in the future, I shall not answer questions asked for the proverbial "third time".

Simple.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Aggregate?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:40 am


User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Aggregate?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:14 am

Greetings Tilt,

Of course in Tilt-loka, Retro always looks bad. Isn't it fortunate those posts are still there so that anyone who may be interested can decide for themselves whether you were engaging me in good faith or not, and whether they might be subject to such engagement from you, now or in the future.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine