Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Postby Dmytro » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:23 am

whynotme wrote:There is Chinese Agamas which many part similar to Nikaya, there is part describe human on other continent lives 1000 year. No human on Earth lives 1000 year


In Pali Nikayas there are no such figures.

And where is my naga? Is it live in Ocean or not?


That's a good question, but on the different topic.
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Postby Sylvester » Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:24 am

Dmytro wrote:
Son wrote:Why would any of them travel to America I wonder? Is that mentioned? I mean, besides the abundant natural beauty.


Probably because it was a good place to collect alms.


I recall reading a translation of the Commentary to MN 81, that the Buddha Kassapa observed the customs of Uttarakura in removing the thatch from Ghatikara's house, without first asking.

Could you confirm if such a narrative exists?
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Postby whynotme » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:50 am

Dmytro wrote:
whynotme wrote:There is Chinese Agamas which many part similar to Nikaya, there is part describe human on other continent lives 1000 year. No human on Earth lives 1000 year


In Pali Nikayas there are no such figures.

Thanks for that infos.

AFAIK, there isn't any detail explaination about the continents, sienru, devas in the Nikaya, ie the hourglass shape of the sineru, alls are comments or later works.

But there is a long suttas in Dīrgha Āgama describes about human in other continents, and it is said that Agamas is corresponds to Nikaya when Buddism was spreaded to the North using Sankrit. The Chinese copied them in their language and most of the Sankrit works are lost. As a researcher how do you rate Agamas source compare to Pali?

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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Postby Dmytro » Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:20 am

whynotme wrote:Thanks for that infos.


You are welcome.

AFAIK, there isn't any detail explaination about the continents, sienru, devas in the Nikaya, ie the hourglass shape of the sineru, alls are comments or later works.


Yes, indeed.

But there is a long suttas in Dīrgha Āgama describes about human in other continents, and it is said that Agamas is corresponds to Nikaya when Buddism was spreaded to the North using Sankrit. The Chinese copied them in their language and most of the Sankrit works are lost. As a researcher how do you rate Agamas source compare to Pali?


Chinese Agamas were mostly translated from Middle Indo Ariyan ("Prakrit") languages of several Buddhist schools, for example, from Gandhari language. It happened even before the advent of Sanskritization: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3215

The very first Chinese translations were made from Central Asian languages: http://books.google.com/books?id=Cgdkb2 ... 1&pg=PA126

Mahayana sutras were translated to Chinese from Sanskrit.

On one hand, Chinese Agamas have much more later insertions. On the other hand, they have undergone less stylization, conversion to stock passages, so the "raw" structure of the text is often preserved.

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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Postby Sylvester » Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:03 am

Sylvester wrote:
Dmytro wrote:
Son wrote:Why would any of them travel to America I wonder? Is that mentioned? I mean, besides the abundant natural beauty.


Probably because it was a good place to collect alms.


I recall reading a translation of the Commentary to MN 81, that the Buddha Kassapa observed the customs of Uttarakura in removing the thatch from Ghatikara's house, without first asking.

Could you confirm if such a narrative exists?


My mistake - I saw this narrative, not in the Pali Commentaries, but in the Agama parallels to MN 81.
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Postby whynotme » Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:13 am

Many thanks Dmytro,

I want to ask this: I read in Vinaya about the first Council collected 5 Nikayas which means include Khuddaka Nikaya. But some books said only 4 Nikayas were collected after the first Council, the Khuddaka was a later collection. It might be there are some typos or mistranslations and I don't have any clue, .
Can you share some light about this?

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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Postby Dmytro » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:05 pm

whynotme wrote:I want to ask this: I read in Vinaya about the first Council collected 5 Nikayas which means include Khuddaka Nikaya. But some books said only 4 Nikayas were collected after the first Council, the Khuddaka was a later collection. It might be there are some typos or mistranslations and I don't have any clue, .
Can you share some light about this?


Khuddaka Nikaya, in its present form, has been formed on the Third Council, and includes some obviously later works, such as the "Questions of Milinda".
On the other hand, evidently there was some earlier form of Khuddaka Nikaya, which included early texts.

These questions deviate from the topic of this thread, so it would be better to discuss them in separate threads.
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:02 pm

Dmytro wrote:present form, has been formed on the Third Council, and includes some obviously later works, such as the "Questions of Milinda".
On the other hand, evidently there was some earlier form of Khuddaka Nikaya, which included early texts

These questions deviate from the topic of this thread, so it would be better to discuss them in separate threads.

Yes, see, for example:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=12663
for discussions of the ancientness of parts of the Sutta Nipata, for example.

:anjali:
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Postby whynotme » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:09 pm

Many thanks

Dmytro wrote:These questions deviate from the topic of this thread, so it would be better to discuss them in separate threads.

Oh my bad

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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Postby cittaanurakkho » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:55 am

Dmytro wrote:What mountain, invisible to human eyes, can be located on the North Pole, submerged deep into the ocean, in the form of the inverted cone?

This is the form of the magnetic axis of the Earth:



Any mentioned of aurora in the Pali text or elsewhere? Could be the radiant deva?
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Postby Dmytro » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:29 am

cittaanurakkho wrote:Any mentioned of aurora in the Pali text or elsewhere? Could be the radiant deva?


Russian scholar of Mahabharata Boris Smirnov brought up a hypothesis that the apsara's "play of rainbows", described in Mahabharata as happening near Meru, is actually aurora.

There are descriptions of mount Meru's efflugence in Mahabharata:

There is a glowing mountain called Meru, which is bathed in its own radiance. Fine beyond all other mountains, it subdues the sun's own light with its dazzling golden peaks. Indeed, it is like a wondrous golden ornament. Popular with gods and Gandharvas, it is immeasurable and can be approached only by those who are abundantly righteous. Awesome beasts of prey frequent that great mountain, and heavenly herbs illumine it. Standing tall, it spreads up and over the vault of heaven. Unattainable by most, lying beyond even their imagination, this mountain, rich in rivers and forests, resounds with the songs of the most charming varieties of birds.
Scaling its bright and gem-studded peak, which rises almost forever upward, all the mighty demigods once met atop the Meru Mount.

http://philosophy.ru/library/asiatica/i ... 1_adi.html
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01018.htm

Between these two (viz., Malyavat and Gandhamadana) is a globular mountain called Meru made of gold. Effulgent as the morning sun, it is like fire without smoke. It is eighty-four thousand Yojanas high, and, O king, its depth also is eighty-four Yojanas. It standeth bearing the worlds above, below and transversely. Besides Meru are situated, O lord, these four islands, viz., Bhadraswa, and Ketumala, and Jamvudwipa otherwise called Bharata, and Uttar-Kuru which is the abode of persons who have achieved the merit of righteousness. The bird Sumukha, the son of Suparna, beholding that all the birds on Meru were of golden plumage, reflected that he should leave that mountain inasmuch as there was no difference between the good, middling, and bad birds. The foremost of luminaries, the sun, always circumambulates Meru, as also the moon with (his) attendant constellation, and the Wind-god too.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m06/m06006.htm

See also:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03162.htm

From the commentary to Stapatha Brahmana:

'On the top of Mount Meru lies the city of Amarâvatî, wherein the gods dwell; and beneath Meru lies Irâvatî, the city of the Asuras: between these two lies the earth.' Sâyana.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbr/sbe ... htm#fn_295
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Postby gavesako » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:57 am

Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

ajahnchah.org - Teachings of Ajahn Chah in many languages
Dhammatube - Videos on Buddhist practice
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Postby Dmytro » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:01 pm

gavesako wrote:Interesting maps with the four continents on this Thai website:


Thank you. It's interesting that the Chinese sculpture presents Mount Sumeru as umbrella-shaped, just as Earth's magnetosphere.

http://www.peking-tours.com/lama-temple/mount-xumi.html

This corresponds very well with other ancient depictions.

http://www.exoticindiaart.com/product/TF41/
http://phoenixandturtle.net/images/meru.jpg
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Postby gavesako » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:11 pm

Apparently there the belief among some Thai Buddhists that the Uttarakuru continent actually refers to beings living on another planet. :alien:
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Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Postby theY » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:15 pm

Thank you, for creating this topic at pali section. I tried to practice my English, very hard. So I will talk this topic in pali.

1. 'Suddhāvāse kira anāgāmimahābrahmā isiyo vedapakaraṇaṃ abhaṇi. atha kho cirakālesu atikantesu isayo brāhmaṇā hutvā taṃ pakaraṇameva bhananti.' koci ācariyo maṃ 'imaṃ atthaṃ atthakathāya vutta'nti.

Taṃ ambaṭṭhasutte "Āgatāni kho, tāta ambaṭṭha, amhākaṃ mantesu dvattiṃsa mahāpurisalakkhaṇānī"tiātivatthunā sameti.

Tassa ca atthakathā vuttaṃ "Mahāpurisalakkhaṇanti mahāpurisānaṃ buddhādīnaṃ lakkhaṇadīpakaṃ dvādasasahassaganthapamāṇaṃ satthaṃ. Yattha soḷasasahassagāthāparimāṇā buddhamantā nāma ahesuṃ, yesaṃ vasena iminā lakkhaṇena samannāgatā buddhā nāma honti, iminā paccekabuddhā, iminā dve aggasāvakā, asīti mahāsāvakā , buddhamātā, buddhapitā, aggupaṭṭhāko, aggupaṭṭhāyikā, rājā cakkavattīti ayaṃ viseso paññāyatī"ti.

Tasma "kathaṃ imaṃ pakaraṇaṃ veddo viyā"ti evaṃ kaṅkhamāno na yujjati.

2. Mahābrahmā vā iddhimantā vā amhakaṃ mattaṃ na ganeyyuṃ. Tasma te te theories tipiṭakana vā atthakathāya vā vuttaṃ, ādittacandanapamānikaṃ vā dīpantaraddhānayocanapamānikāṃ vā aññe tule vā, gahetvā "Buddtist theories 'science'to na sametī"ti na vaṭṭati.

Tañhi atirekamattā tipiṭake vā atthakathāya vā atthi. Keci 1 yojanaṃ~=1km, keci 1 ~=16km.

So, we can't compare tipitaka and commentary's system or scale with science's.

3. Mahābrahmā vā iddhimantā vā talamattaṃ aññamaṇṇehi na sameyyuṃ. Eko "Pluto"tārakaṃ ṭhitamāno ādittaṃ vā candaṃ vā disvā ekaṃ pamānikaṃ bhaṇeyya. Aparo "mar" ṭhitamāno ekaṃ pamānikaṃ bhaṇeyya. Āñño aññacakkavāḷaṃ ṭhitamāno añña-ādittamattaṃ pamānikaṃ bhaṇeyya. Te hi ekavatthukaṃ apassiṃsu. ṭehi pana pamānaṃ kataṃ aññamaññaṃ na samenti. Tasma mayaṃ poraṇamattaṃ na jāneyyuṃ.

4.Whoever didn't practice follow tipiṭaka, atthakathā, and ṭīkā, they can't actually deny or accept that point, because they are acinteyya.

5.Sineru can refer to axis, sun, or any other thing, that analysts can guess, if they don't try to guess only another view.

, etc.

How there significant to know about size of the sun ?

P.S. I think, I shouldn't write in pali anymore if I don't want to practice my pali writing-- harder than english! (but before I began to practice english, it was easier.) I skip my tried with english to have a headache with pali~

I hope someday we will have pali offline dictionary for linux.
Lesson Relationship of Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha (10/31/2012)
http://tipitakanews.org/en/node/61
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