Is everything kamma?

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Is everything kamma?

Postby whynotme » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:09 am

Hi everyone

Is everything one meet, see, or everything happens because of kamma? It seems it is the attitude of mahayana while therevada ie, "Questions of Milinda" has stated that not everything is because of kamma but that book isn't Nikaya. What is your opinion?

Kamma is seen as cause and effect when the mind and intention are involved. Physical laws are not kamma but is it totally controlled by kamma? I.e some random objects may fall on one because of kamma (angulimala sutta). Is everyone I meet today is because of kamma?

Regards.
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:20 am

Greetings whynotme,

Kamma is action, and any sankhara (formation) is an action. Therefore, you could look to paticcasamuppada (dependent origination) for a detailed account of what occurs as a result of kamma.

If you don't adopt the detailed account, you'll have to instead adopt the simple account, and the risk here is that kamma all too easily becomes interpreted as something that is performed by a fixed agent (e.g. an atman - self, or puggala - person) who in turn receives the vipaka (fruit) of their action. The simple account may be useful to encourage moral behaviour in those who are unwilling or unable to comprehend the more detailed account, but if you're not careful, you'll find yourself coming up against all manner of contradictions.

Tread with care, and all the best.

Metta,
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Postby whynotme » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:39 am

Ah thank you, sorry my bad, English isn't my first language and sometimes I tried to think in it so it is not clear. The Buddha and arahant do not create kamma, but without my own language, I can not discuss any clearer.

Well, I will wait for others to discuss and learn something (include the using of language)

Regards
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:50 am

whynotme wrote:Hi everyone

Is everything one meet, see, or everything happens because of kamma? It seems it is the attitude of mahayana while therevada ie, "Questions of Milinda" has stated that not everything is because of kamma but that book isn't Nikaya. What is your opinion?

Kamma is seen as cause and effect when the mind and intention are involved. Physical laws are not kamma but is it totally controlled by kamma? I.e some random objects may fall on one because of kamma (angulimala sutta). Is everyone I meet today is because of kamma?

Regards.


not all things that happen to us is due to our Kamma, sometimes it is disease (four of the reasons), Kamma, carelesness, changes in season, and harsh treatment as found in SN36.21

now although this list does include things which could be the result of past Kamma, not all are necessarily the result all the time.
I take season to also include natural cycles that result in storms and earthquakes & harsh treatment being what we or another does fwit.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:05 am

whynotme wrote:Ah thank you, sorry my bad, English isn't my first language and sometimes I tried to think in it so it is not clear. The Buddha and arahant do not create kamma, but without my own language, I can not discuss any clearer.

Well, I will wait for others to discuss and learn something (include the using of language)

Regards

Hi,
The Buddha and Arahant do intentionally act although it is a particular type of Kamma known as Action that is neither black or white, it has no vipaka (fruit) which would condition a next life to is in a sense neutral.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Postby cooran » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:37 am

whynotme wrote:Hi everyone

Is everything one meet, see, or everything happens because of kamma? It seems it is the attitude of mahayana while therevada ie, "Questions of Milinda" has stated that not everything is because of kamma but that book isn't Nikaya. What is your opinion?

Kamma is seen as cause and effect when the mind and intention are involved. Physical laws are not kamma but is it totally controlled by kamma? I.e some random objects may fall on one because of kamma (angulimala sutta). Is everyone I meet today is because of kamma?

Regards.

Hello whynotme,

This teaching by Mahasi Sayadaw may be of assistance:

• WHAT IS KARMA?
• KARMA AND VIPAKA
• WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF KARMA?
• CLASSIFICATION OF KARMA
• QUESTIONS ON THE THEORY OF KARMA
• NATURE OF KARMA
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm

with metta
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:38 am

whynotme wrote:It seems it is the attitude of mahayana while therevada ie, "Questions of Milinda" has stated that not everything is because of kamma but that book isn't Nikaya. What is your opinion?

The Milindapañha was included in the Khudakanikāya by the Chattha Sangayana. I don't know if it was included earlier — presumably it was, or it might have disappeared by now. The Visuddhimagga, by way of contrast, is included in "Other books." Both of them are more like Commentaries than Suttas, but they are not classified as Aṭṭhakathā.

Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammāsambuddhassa
Khuddakanikāye
Milindapañhapāḷi

Some Pāli texts were obviously later than the time of the Buddha. Even the Atthakanagara Sutta was taught by Ānanda after the passing away of the Buddha, but was included in the Majjhimanikāya at the First Council.

I don't think there is any difference of attitude between Mahāyāna and Theravāda — both teach that kamma is determinism.

The Milindapañha is only quoting older texts like the Moliyasivaka Sutta. No doubt, the reasons that it is included in the Khuddakanikāya is to ensure that it preserved for future generations. I spent several years of my early monk's life editing and abridging it to make it more accessible to modern western readers, who are almost always in a hurry, and want just the essential teachings as briefly as possible. The Debate of King Milinda is a useful introduction to key points of Buddhist doctrine. Hopefully, reading it will encourage people to look up the relevant passages in the Tipitaka and learn to find their way around the texts.
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Postby SayalayMaCandasobha » Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:23 am

Is everything one meet, see, or everything happens because of kamma?


As far as I understand, everything does not depend on kamma.
For example, matter is conditionned by 4 factors : kamma, mind (citta), seasonal conditions (utu) and food (āhāra).

You can find more explanations in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (starting from p337)

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf

WIth metta
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Postby whynotme » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:34 pm

Oh many thanks everyone, it is clear now.
The Buddha and Arahant do intentionally act although it is a particular type of Kamma known as Action that is neither black or white, it has no vipaka (fruit) which would condition a next life to is in a sense neutral.

Dear Sittasanto,

What make their actions different?

Regards
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Postby waimengwan » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:34 pm

Thank you cittasanto for the information that not everything is due to karma.

Yes carelessness and harsh treatment can create causes for us to endure in the future.

Earthquakes can that be a change of season ? Spring to Winter I would say it is.
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Postby Alobha » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:31 pm

Cittasanto wrote:not all things that happen to us is due to our Kamma, sometimes it is disease (four of the reasons), Kamma, carelesness, changes in season, and harsh treatment as found in SN36.21

now although this list does include things which could be the result of past Kamma, not all are necessarily the result all the time.
I take season to also include natural cycles that result in storms and earthquakes & harsh treatment being what we or another does fwit.


Yes, not everything that happens to us is due to our Kamma. But if it wasn't for our kamma, nothing bad would happen to us.
Depending on the perspective, one could argue that everything you suffer is due to your kamma. The kamma that brought you into this life with the many dangers and suffering - the karmic process (kamma-bhava) is just explaining that it's kamma why jati / birth occurs. If we wouldn't have the particular kamma to be born (in this or a lower realm), none of this would happen to us. From a level of ultimate truth, every kind of suffering can be prevented by reaching parinibbana and never being born again. No birth, no suffering, right? That's the deathless.

The Sivaka Sutta probably needs to be seen in the context. Moliyasivaka the wanderer heard from the brahmans that "there are some brahmans & contemplatives who are of this doctrine, this view: Whatever an individual feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — is entirely caused by what was done before."
Of course this means that Moliyasivaka asked the Buddha about whether pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain are determined in this life for a person by the past.
Which is not the case. And while once birth (by our kamma!) occurs, suffering is just inevitable to happen, not every pleasure and every suffering is caused by what was done before on a more basic level. Like weather, diseases etc.

So, on a meta-level kamma is the reason why we are born and therefore is also the reason for the suffering in this life. I think that this might be a standpoint from which people can argue that khamma is the reason for all our experience. But this easily gives the wrong impression if not set in the right context. People don't die in a tornado because they did something bad in the past, but rather because they're born in this realm where tornados are part of the natural dangers. It can be easily misunderstod if one would say "this person died in the tornado because of her/his kamma" - It would be more accurate to say "this person died in a tornado because all people who are born, die sooner or later."

That's how i understand it. Please correct me if i'm wrong here.
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:33 pm

whynotme wrote:Oh many thanks everyone, it is clear now.
The Buddha and Arahant do intentionally act although it is a particular type of Kamma known as Action that is neither black or white, it has no vipaka (fruit) which would condition a next life to is in a sense neutral.

Dear Sittasanto,

What make their actions different?

Regards

To be honest I do not know of any text which says it is this or that, but it is highly likely the lack of Clinging, & the lack of greed hatered & delusion.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:38 pm

waimengwan wrote:Thank you cittasanto for the information that not everything is due to karma.

Yes carelessness and harsh treatment can create causes for us to endure in the future.

Earthquakes can that be a change of season ? Spring to Winter I would say it is.

It is a change in nature so I would argue that it is, all that is certain is that we will die, how is not determined untill the moment as far as I can tell in the canon.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is everything kamma?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:12 pm

Hi Alobha
I maybe reading you wrong but that looks close to pre-destany at times to me.
Suffering itself is an action in regard to the second dart, but that doesn't mean that pain need be painful.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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