World Population Clock - disturbing

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danieLion
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Re: World Population Clock - disturbing

Post by danieLion »

Hi manas,
manas wrote:ruining the Earth's ecosystems.... No wonder we are in such dire trouble!
Even if we are ruining ecosystems (I'm not convinced), the earth doesn't care. She knows we or something else kill ourselves off before that. And if we don't, she also knows she'll probably recover from whatever we do; and even if she doesn't, she knows the universe will take care of her.

We are in very dire trouble, but not because of population growth.
Best,
Daniel
danieLion
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Re: World Population Clock - disturbing

Post by danieLion »

Believing population growth is something to worry about is just sublimated self importance. It creates the illusion of control where there is little or none.
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Dan74
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Re: World Population Clock - disturbing

Post by Dan74 »

Would it be better if assertions in all posts here were actually supported by facts referenced from reputable sources?

I mean we can all shout our opinions passionately past each other 'till the cows come home, but what are we actually trying to achieve with this?
_/|\_
danieLion
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Re: World Population Clock - disturbing

Post by danieLion »

Ytrog wrote:If we are going to talk about how fast resources are spend on this world I have an excellent talk by dr. Albert Bartlett about the exponential function, it's effect on resources and why there is no such thing as sustainable growth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vII-GxsrR2c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I realize it is lengthy but it is also quite profound in it's message and I found it very interesting. I recommend watching it completely. :sage:
From the video (12:55-14:55):
On July 7 1986 the new reports indicated that the world population had reached 5 billion people growing at a rate of 1.7% a year. Your reaction might be, "That's so small. Nothing could ever happen at that rate." So you calculate the doubling time...to find it's only 41 years. More recently, in 1999, we read that the world population had increased from 5 billion to 6 billion people. The good new is news is that the growth rate had dropped from 1.7% per year to 1.3% per year.

1986
World popluation 5 BIllion
Growth-1.7% per year
Doubling time-41 years

1999
World popluation 6 BIllion
Growth-1.3% per year
Doubling time-53 years

The bad news is that in spite of the drop in growth rate the world population today is increasing by approximately 80 million people every year! If this modest 1.3% per year could continue, the world population would reach a density of 1 person per square meter on the dry-land surface of the earth in just 780 years. And the mass of people would equal the mass of the earth in just 24,000 years! Now we can smile at those [figures]. We know they couldn't happen.... Zero population growth is going to happen. Now we can debate whether we like zero population growth or we don't like it, but it's going to happen--whether we debate it or not, whether like it or not--it's absolutely certain people could not live at that density on the dry-land surface of the earth. Therefore, today's high birth rates will drop, today's low death rates will rise, until they have exactly the same numerical value that will certainly be in a time short compared to 780 years.
Best,
Daniel
danieLion
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Re: World Population Clock - disturbing

Post by danieLion »

Dan74 wrote:Would it be better if assertions in all posts here were actually supported by facts referenced from reputable sources?

I mean we can all shout our opinions passionately past each other 'till the cows come home, but what are we actually trying to achieve with this?
Hi Dan,
I do not mean to be facetious, slippery, sophistical, cute or mischievous, but it depends on what you mean by "facts" and "reputable sources."

I've cited what I believe is a reputable geologist (James Hutton), a reputable (living) paleontologist (Greg Graffin, Ph.D), and a reputable physicist (Albert A. Bartlett, Ph.D).

Best,
Daniel
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Alex123
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Re: World Population Clock - disturbing

Post by Alex123 »

danieLion wrote: The universe doesn't give a f**k how much we reproduce. When it's ready to explode again, we're ALL stardust.
Right. An asteroid smashing into earth can really put in check any excessive growth. To live is hard, to die is easy.
danieLion wrote: Since we have no control over indifferent nature, the escape from samsara and not "population growth" should be our primary concern. Humans will never breed at a fast enough rate to outpace the will of nature and the reality of samsara.
You are absolutely right.
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tiltbillings
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Re: World Population Clock - disturbing

Post by tiltbillings »

Image
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dan74
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Re: World Population Clock - disturbing

Post by Dan74 »

danieLion wrote:
Dan74 wrote:Would it be better if assertions in all posts here were actually supported by facts referenced from reputable sources?

I mean we can all shout our opinions passionately past each other 'till the cows come home, but what are we actually trying to achieve with this?
Hi Dan,
I do not mean to be facetious, slippery, sophistical, cute or mischievous, but it depends on what you mean by "facts" and "reputable sources."

I've cited what I believe is a reputable geologist (James Hutton), a reputable (living) paleontologist (Greg Graffin, Ph.D), and a reputable physicist (Albert A. Bartlett, Ph.D).

Best,
Daniel
Daniel

You seem to argue that we are not draining the planets resources, that overpopulation is not a legitimate concern and anyway when the Universe explodes again, we are all startdust, so why be concerned at all.

Alex seems to argue that Global Warming is a global conspiracy.

The former position is entirely a matter of perspective and I think a very self-centred and short-sighted perspective in this instance. What Alex asserts is a fringe opinion supported neither by the bulk of evidence nor by the most serious experts in the field. It is similar to the argument that smoking does not cause cancer that held sway among some people mostly supported by tobacco companies, and even a few who should've known better like the great statistician, RA Fisher. Oh, how quickly we forget!

So what I am trying to ask for is to separate opinions from evidence, personal perspectives from facts. You may not care about the planet and you are in good company there - from Louis XIV to Exxon Valdez, there have been plenty of people like that. If you are a rare contemplative, a recluse who shuns modern comforts and massive energy usage bought at a dear expense to this ecosystem - fine. If you are a modern Westerner who is happy to use but not to think where it is coming from and at what cost - this is sheer hypocrisy.

As for what Alex maintains, again this is an emotionally-laden bias that the corporate lobbies and growth-wallah have nurtured successfully in the great US of A and a little less here. There is nothing anyone can say to convince people like this because they are not interested in the facts - the mind's made up. Probably the same with you too, on this topic.

There is so much crap floating around all these topics, I don't know where to start - even this population "calculation" above... :shrug:
_/|\_
daverupa
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Re: World Population Clock - disturbing

Post by daverupa »

Well-said.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Kim OHara
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Re: World Population Clock - disturbing

Post by Kim OHara »

Dan74 wrote: There is so much crap floating around all these topics, I don't know where to start - even this population "calculation" above... :shrug:
Indeed.
Here is one possible starting point, however: http://www.footprintnetwork.org/en/inde ... _overview/

:namaste:
Kim
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Ytrog
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Re: World Population Clock - disturbing

Post by Ytrog »

Dan74 wrote:There is so much crap floating around all these topics, I don't know where to start - even this population "calculation" above... :shrug:
You can make the calculations yourself to check it. It is simple arithmetic and my intention of posting the video where the calculation was quoted from was simply so that people here would at least have the skills necessary to interpret and check the facts in various articles posted. What is crap about it? :thinking:
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.
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Kim OHara
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Re: World Population Clock - disturbing

Post by Kim OHara »

Ytrog wrote:
Dan74 wrote:There is so much crap floating around all these topics, I don't know where to start - even this population "calculation" above... :shrug:
You can make the calculations yourself to check it. It is simple arithmetic and my intention of posting the video where the calculation was quoted from was simply so that people here would at least have the skills necessary to interpret and check the facts in various articles posted. What is crap about it? :thinking:
Ytrog,
I wasn't thinking of your post when I responded to Dan. I haven't watched the video but I know (and I'm sure he does) that, as you say, "there is no such thing as sustainable growth" in the long term.
However, we do see people presenting irrelevant, misleading or poorly understood science all the time, and quite often we see people presenting lies as truth - sometimes in good faith, sometimes not. In a word, crap.
As I said earlier in this thread, I don't believe overpopulation is going to be a critical problem for the world - partly because we are learning to control our population growth, partly because other problems are likely to strike first. Just for that reason, 'exponential growth' as such is not necessarily a problem for humanity.

:namaste:
Kim
danieLion
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Re: World Population Clock - disturbing

Post by danieLion »

Dan74 wrote:
Daniel
You seem to argue that we are not draining the planets resources, that overpopulation is not a legitimate concern and anyway when the Universe explodes again, we are all startdust, so why be concerned at all.
"Seems" is a good way to put it. My posts go to the limits of our knowledge.

What do you mean by "argue"?
Dan74 wrote:Alex seems to argue that Global Warming is a global conspiracy.
Don't conflate what I'm saying with Alex's posts. I'm not his spokesman.
Dan74 wrote:So what I am trying to ask for is to separate opinions....

Now you want opinions? What happened to "facts" and "reputable sources"?
Dan74 wrote:You may not care about the planet....

I have no idea where you get that from and it borders on slander.
Dan74 wrote:There is so much crap floating around all these topics, I don't know where to start - even this population "calculation" above... :shrug:
Did you watch the video? If you put the population computation in the context of the whole video, you might get a little closer to understanding how I'm proceeding (Hint: the physicists in the video AGREES WITH YOU ABOUT RESOURCES AND POPULATION). It SEEMS you've also got pretty emotional over all
this.

Here's another, but more general, hint. How do you know the earth moves?
Best,
Daniel
danieLion
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Re: World Population Clock - disturbing

Post by danieLion »

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Ytrog wrote:
Dan74 wrote:There is so much crap floating around all these topics, I don't know where to start - even this population "calculation" above... :shrug:
You can make the calculations yourself to check it. It is simple arithmetic and my intention of posting the video where the calculation was quoted from was simply so that people here would at least have the skills necessary to interpret and check the facts in various articles posted. What is crap about it? :thinking:
Ytrog,
I wasn't thinking of your post when I responded to Dan. I haven't watched the video but I know (and I'm sure he does) that, as you say, "there is no such thing as sustainable growth" in the long term.
However, we do see people presenting irrelevant, misleading or poorly understood science all the time, and quite often we see people presenting lies as truth - sometimes in good faith, sometimes not. In a word, crap.
As I said earlier in this thread, I don't believe overpopulation is going to be a critical problem for the world - partly because we are learning to control our population growth, partly because other problems are likely to strike first. Just for that reason, 'exponential growth' as such is not necessarily a problem for humanity.

:namaste:
Kim
Kim,
You (and Dan) should watch the WHOLE video before you put your feet in your mouths again.
Best,
Daniel
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Kim OHara
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Re: World Population Clock - disturbing

Post by Kim OHara »

danieLion wrote: Kim,
You (and Dan) should watch the WHOLE video before you put your feet in your mouths again.
Best,
Daniel
Daniel,
I am not muddled and I haven't put my foot in my mouth at all (in this thread, anyway :tongue: ) but I suspect you are and have.
If you have a sensible question, I will try to answer it.
If you clearly say something which I know to be wrong, I may try to set you straight.
Other than that, I can't see much point in continuing the discussion.

:namaste:
Kim
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