Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Annapurna » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:19 pm

Economy/Germany: Volcano Medic launched as the first approved medical cannabinoid inhaler

The German company Vapormed launched the world’s first officially approved medical cannabinoid inhaler, the Volcano Medic Vaporizer. The Volcano Medic Vaporization System is intended to vaporize and facilitate the inhalation of dronabinol (THC) dissolved in alcohol or cannabinoids from cannabis flowers (cannabis flos). In their press release of 2 June the company notes that "the Volcano Medic Vaporization System resolves two medical-technical problems at the same time. On the one hand, for the first time the Volcano Medic Vaporization System allows for the medical inhalation therapy with liquid, in alcohol dissolved cannabinoids. On the other hand, it allows for the inhalation therapy with cannabinoids directly from dried hemp flowers. (…) In the Volcano Medic Vaporization System the cannabinoids are solved (vaporized) by heat impact only. A combustion as it takes place while smoking does not occur." This avoids the formation of noxious combustion products.

The main advantages of the inhalation of cannabinoids compared to oral administration would be the rapid onset of effects and cost reduction due to considerably higher efficiency of vaporized cannabinoids. "The systemic bioavailability of inhaled cannabinoids is approx. 29% - 40%. For comparison: The systemic bioavailability of cannabinoids administered orally is below 15%." The manufacturer of the Volcano Medic Vaporization System is the company Storz & Bickel. According to the press release the Volcano Medic will first be available in the Netherlands and in Germany. It is certified by TUEV SUED in Munich in compliance with the applicable directives and laws for medical devices. "The availability of the Volcano Medic in further countries depends on the availability of authorized and vaporizable cannabinoids or cannabis flowers in these countries," the company writes.

More information:
www.vapormed.com
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby danieLion » Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:31 pm

marc108 wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:problems were clearly triggered by marijuana use.


use? or abuse?

Good question. The DSM has something to say about this distinction.
Best,
Daniel
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:50 pm

danieLion wrote:Good question. The DSM has something to say about this distinction.
Best,
Daniel

Using any mind-altering chemical without a legitimate reason is abuse. Marijuana, for most people, has the medical value of dish soap - asking if they "use or abuse" is like asking if I use or abuse pencil shavings.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Annapurna » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:26 am

Abuse of a mind altering substance means, that you do it for recreational purposes, to entertain yourself with the extra sensations it brings, the fake high.

Usage is, for instance, when you feel no craving for a high, but wish to get rid of the symptoms of an illness, like the compulsive movement disorders and curses of Tourette's.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby danieLion » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:03 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
danieLion wrote:Marijuana, for most people, has the medical value of dish soap....

Hi LY,
Who gets to decide medical value?
Best,
Daniel
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby daverupa » Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:07 pm

Time Magazine reports:

In recent months, new research has explored some of these issues. One study led by Dr. Serge Sevy, an associate professor of psychiatry at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York City, looked at 100 patients between the ages of 16 and 40 with schizophrenia, half of whom smoked marijuana. Sevy and colleagues found that among the marijuana users, 75% had begun smoking before the onset of schizophrenia and that their disease appeared about two years earlier than in those who did not use the drug. But when the researchers controlled for other factors known to influence schizophrenia risk, including gender, education and socioeconomic status, the association between disease onset and marijuana disappeared.

...

Within Krebs's study population of 190 patients (121 of whom had used cannabis), researchers found a subgroup of 44 whose disease was powerfully affected by the drug... The key difference between the cannabis-sensitive patients and the nonaffected group was a family history of disease: those in the former group had three times the number of close relatives with psychotic disorders, says Krebs. Further, the sensitive group started smoking pot at a younger age — before age 17, compared with 18 in patients without marijuana sensitivity — and Krebs thinks the early exposure may have critically altered the development of brain receptors affected by marijuana.


Anyway, it's quite complex. A discerning individual would not yet come to the conclusion that only this or that was true, and everything else false. Reasoned acceptance of a view can turn out in one of two ways, in the course of things...
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby suttametta » Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:39 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:I am not sure about its effectiveness in rheumatism, but have heard it is good for glaucoma, chemotherapy and AIDS patients, and others with chronic pain conditions.


Rheumatism is a kind of chronic pain.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby suttametta » Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:47 pm

I use dharma to treat the chronic pain in the leg I almost lost in a motorcycle accident. In 2002, I collided with a car that sent me 50 feet in the air and left both my shins in compound fractures. I nearly lost my left leg below the knee, but they saved it with by doing an abdominal flap, removing my left rectal abdominal muscle and transplanting it to my shin. It took me about three years to be able to walk with a limp and another 7 to be able to jog. Severe chronic pain and nerve damage defines this period. In the past three years, I have dedicated myself to using dharma to recover from the pain, physical and emotional disabilities that came from this time. I now can sit in full lotus as long as I want, and just this past month I have been able to jog again. Keeping my mind in a meditative state helped me to keep trying to run despite the pain, and finally the pain went away and my legs feel normal again. In contrast, marijuana clouded my mind, made me focus on the pain and made me emotional. I dropped the medical marijuana path and went full bore into dharma.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:51 pm

danieLion wrote:Hi LY,
Who gets to decide medical value?
Best,
Daniel

Your question is a non-sequiter. Regardless of who legally dictates the medicinal value, even a cursory glance at the industry shows that such decisions are being made so negligently that any planned "The doctors know better than you do!" defense just doesn't stand up.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Annapurna » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:28 pm

suttametta wrote:I use dharma to treat the chronic pain in the leg I almost lost in a motorcycle accident. In 2002, I collided with a car that sent me 50 feet in the air and left both my shins in compound fractures. I nearly lost my left leg below the knee, but they saved it with by doing an abdominal flap, removing my left rectal abdominal muscle and transplanting it to my shin. It took me about three years to be able to walk with a limp and another 7 to be able to jog. Severe chronic pain and nerve damage defines this period. In the past three years, I have dedicated myself to using dharma to recover from the pain, physical and emotional disabilities that came from this time. I now can sit in full lotus as long as I want, and just this past month I have been able to jog again. Keeping my mind in a meditative state helped me to keep trying to run despite the pain, and finally the pain went away and my legs feel normal again. In contrast, marijuana clouded my mind, made me focus on the pain and made me emotional. I dropped the medical marijuana path and went full bore into dharma.


I'm glad to hear about your successful recovery and wish you lots of good moments in the future!
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby danieLion » Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:57 pm

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
danieLion wrote:Hi LY,
Who gets to decide medical value?
Best,
Daniel

Your question is a non-sequiter. Regardless of who legally dictates the medicinal value, even a cursory glance at the industry shows that such decisions are being made so negligently that any planned "The doctors know better than you do!" defense just doesn't stand up.

Hi LY,

Which kind of "non-sequiter" did you mean?

So, is "the law" your answer? And it's not dictate, it's decide.

What industry? Did you go beyond a cursory glance?

There's only one correct answer to the question, "Who decides medical value?"
The health care consumer.

In your post, who/what is the referent for "planned"?

Why is a "defense" required? Who's "standing up" to who?

Best,
Daniel
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby danieLion » Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:10 am

daverupa wrote:Time Magazine reports:

In recent months, new research has explored some of these issues. One study led by Dr. Serge Sevy, an associate professor of psychiatry at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York City, looked at 100 patients between the ages of 16 and 40 with schizophrenia, half of whom smoked marijuana. Sevy and colleagues found that among the marijuana users, 75% had begun smoking before the onset of schizophrenia and that their disease appeared about two years earlier than in those who did not use the drug. But when the researchers controlled for other factors known to influence schizophrenia risk, including gender, education and socioeconomic status, the association between disease onset and marijuana disappeared.

...

Within Krebs's study population of 190 patients (121 of whom had used cannabis), researchers found a subgroup of 44 whose disease was powerfully affected by the drug... The key difference between the cannabis-sensitive patients and the nonaffected group was a family history of disease: those in the former group had three times the number of close relatives with psychotic disorders, says Krebs. Further, the sensitive group started smoking pot at a younger age — before age 17, compared with 18 in patients without marijuana sensitivity — and Krebs thinks the early exposure may have critically altered the development of brain receptors affected by marijuana.


Anyway, it's quite complex. A discerning individual would not yet come to the conclusion that only this or that was true, and everything else false. Reasoned acceptance of a view can turn out in one of two ways, in the course of things...

Hi Dave,
Thanks for proceeding counterinductively. I appreciate it. I'm neither convinced nor dissuaded that the hypothetico-deductive "method" (with it's "radomizations" and "'double-blind' controls") yields results any better than correlational studies. Sampling procedures are enough alone to give anyone with even a basic understanding of the philosophy of science pause. The sample sizes in the Time article you cite are an example.
Best,
Daniel
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Aloka » Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:32 pm

danieLion wrote:
danieLion wrote: Hi Aloka,

Did you actually look at those REEFER MADNESS studies? Pot use is no more "linked" to schizophrenia and psychosis than tap water.



Aloka wrote:Additionally the 'skunk' available to kids on the streets today is incredibly powerful stuff .

Hi Aloka,
That's what people who use it medicinally call progress.

And: what "streets"? Which "kids"?
Best,
Daniel



What "streets" ?
The streets of broken-down inner city housing estates in UK cities.

Which "kids"?
The children and teenagers who hang out on those streets smoking skunk because there's nothing else for them to do when they're not at school. (e.g. there are no youth centres or free sports facilities)

.
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Billymac29 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:26 am

I believe it is going against the 5th precept. Marijuana is an intoxicant that effects the brain. This is against the precept regardless of what medical benefits it has or could have. Attachment to life and/or aversion to physical pain, imo, causes the most suffering in the world today. One shouldn't break the precepts just because they dislike how reality actually is at the present moment. So much craving to have something not be the way it is. Just my opinion. :)
with metta
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby marc108 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:04 pm

Billymac29 wrote:this is against the precept regardless of what medical benefits it has or could have. Attachment to life and/or aversion to physical pain, imo, causes the most suffering in the world today. One shouldn't break the precepts just because they dislike how reality actually is at the present moment.


i'm sorry but i must disagree with you strongly. you speak like someone who has never been in severe pain that wont let up... even the Buddha laid down when his back hurt. many medicines, even ones that arent used for pain, can become intoxicating at higher doses... even simple cooking spices can become intoxicating at higher doses. the dose makes the medicine... even monks are, for example, permitted to use medicines that are extracted with alcohol. what matters, is the intention... is the intention to use the substance as medicine or to use it for intoxication.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:25 pm

Billymac29 wrote:I believe it is going against the 5th precept. Marijuana is an intoxicant that effects the brain. This is against the precept regardless of what medical benefits it has or could have. Attachment to life and/or aversion to physical pain, imo, causes the most suffering in the world today. One shouldn't break the precepts just because they dislike how reality actually is at the present moment. So much craving to have something not be the way it is. Just my opinion. :)
with metta

as already pointed out, Marajuana was allowed by the Buddha for Rheumatoid pain.
and the Buddha advises us to look after this body & to keep healthy.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Billymac29 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:19 pm

as already pointed out, Marajuana was allowed by the Buddha for Rheumatoid pain.
and the Buddha advises us to look after this body & to keep healthy.

Where did the buddha talk about marijuana?

with metta
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:28 pm

Billymac29 wrote:
as already pointed out, Marajuana was allowed by the Buddha for Rheumatoid pain.
and the Buddha advises us to look after this body & to keep healthy.

Where did the buddha talk about marijuana?

with metta


it is within the vinaya!
as already mentioned in the thread here viewtopic.php?f=42&t=13494#p200739
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Billymac29 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:29 pm

i'm sorry but i must disagree with you strongly. you speak like someone who has never been in severe pain that wont let up... even the Buddha laid down when his back hurt. many medicines, even ones that arent used for pain, can become intoxicating at higher doses... even simple cooking spices can become intoxicating at higher doses. the dose makes the medicine... even monks are, for example, permitted to use medicines that are extracted with alcohol. what matters, is the intention... is the intention to use the substance as medicine or to use it for intoxication.


I've had pain before. I never said that certain medicines were off the list of the 5th precept. Sorry, that is the precept.. If your afraid to die or get sick, then thats suffering.. Show me the sutta where buddha told people to smoke pot and i will believe it.
The buddha laid down cause he was in pain.. He didn't smoke pot..lol

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Re: Selling medicine marijuana, is it violate the 5th precept

Postby Billymac29 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:35 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
Billymac29 wrote:
as already pointed out, Marajuana was allowed by the Buddha for Rheumatoid pain.
and the Buddha advises us to look after this body & to keep healthy.

Where did the buddha talk about marijuana?

with metta


it is within the vinaya!
as already mentioned in the thread here viewtopic.php?f=42&t=13494#p200739

thats a link to a dhammawiki site..... where in the actual parts of the vinaya is marijuana stated?

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