Dependent Origination

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Yes, I concur.

It still works as a "three lives" model but some of the valuable lessons are lost if it is done so... or at least require an exorbitant level of interpolation in an attempt to restore them.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Yes, I concur.

It still works as a "three lives" model but some of the valuable lessons are lost if it is done so... or at least require an exorbitant level of interpolation in an attempt to restore them.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Yes I agree, much is lost when it is taught as spanning three lives. It removes much of it from the present and it becomes a distant thing. The buddha only taught it to be realised in this moment to put an end to dukkha.

Ultimately the three lives model comes from an attempt to explain how rebirth can happen with Anatta. However in the suttas I have not come accross one where the Buddha explains how rebirth happens, instead he just states that it will happen if nibbana hasnt been realised and this is only when teaching to lay people or to other wanderers, brahmins etc. He never used Dependent Origination to explain rebirth, he only taught and explained it in order for his followers to put an end to dukkha in this moment.

Its not to say that rebirth does or does not happen, just that Dependent Origination has nothing to do with rebirth from what is taught in the suttas.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Element »

:namaste:
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retrofuturist
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
clw_uk wrote:Its not to say that rebirth does or does not happen, just that Dependent Origination has nothing to do with rebirth from what is taught in the suttas.
:clap:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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atulo
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by atulo »

Interesting, but nobody looked into Notes on Dhamma. Here are two pages from the book:
A NOTE ON PATICCASAMUPPÁDA
Shorter Notes :: PATICCASAMUPPÁDA
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pink_trike
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by pink_trike »

Hi meindzai,
The description of D.O. that appears in the suttas certainly refers to the three lifetime model, as words like "Death" and "Birth" are pretty unambiguous:
These words are completely ambiguous, in our own culture and likely in every culture throughout recorded history.
"The passing of beings out of the various orders of beings, their passing away, dissolution, disappearance, dying, completion of time, dissolution of the aggregates, laying down of the body — this is called death."

"The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation [in a womb], generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact — this is called birth." - Sammaditthi Sutta
These words were written 300- 800 years after Siddhārtha Gautama's death (actual date unknown). It is entirely possible that this is a perversion of another use of "birth" and "death" by Siddhārtha Gautama. There is no easy certainty there.
There's nothing ambiguously metaphorical about it either. Bhikkhu Bodhi pointed out, in his discussion of this Sutta, that when the Buddha spoke in metaphors he was usually explicit about it. We tend not to find anything metaphorical in the Suttas without the Buddha either saying "this is a metaphor for such and such" or using phrases "like" and "as."
But who actually wrote it? No one has any realistic idea. Some scholars aren't confident that there are any or much of Siddhārtha Gautama's words in the teachings. So let's go to the beginning - the 4Nt, which is startling clear and contains no mention of literal rebirth. If literal rebirth was so central then the logic stream would dictate this:
Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering, rebirth is suffering.


...not:
Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering.


There's no mention of this supposedly critical piece of information at all, which would have unambigiously supported the notion of cycling endlessly through repeated lives:
birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering,rebirth is suffering, birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering,rebirth is suffering, birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering,rebirth is suffering...and so on


The very experience that theoretically creates the cycles of existence is glaringly missing. How can this be accounted for? It's unlikely that it is just an error of omission on the part of Siddhārtha Gautama.

Some people engage in mental hula-hoops in an attempt to squeeze literal rebirth into "Right View" in the N8FP, being aware of this glaring break in the logic stream...but that's quite an unrealistic reach:
And what is right view? Knowledge with reference to stress (dukkha can also be translated as suffering), knowledge with reference to the origination of stress (or suffering), knowledge with reference to the cessation of stress (or suffering), knowledge with reference to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress (or suffering): This is called right view.
...because there's no mention of it there either.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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