Arahants

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Arahants

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:10 pm

Isn't revealing attainments a problem if you are deceiving someone? Ie you tell a lay person of an attainment that you haven't got.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Arahants

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:38 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Arahants

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:30 am

Greetings RYB,

As cittasanto says, for the ordained, it is a parajika offense.

A lay arahant could do what they like in that regard... have you got something you wish to tell us? :D

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
Ytrog
Posts: 693
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: The Netherlands, near Arnhem
Contact:

Re: Arahants

Postby Ytrog » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:08 am

I heard someone say that you should let go of your own attainments as well. I personally think it would be a wise thing to do. :sage:

In other words: don't cling to a label on either someone else or yourself.

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Arahants

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:23 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Arahants

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:05 pm

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

janoodot
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:52 am

Re: Arahants

Postby janoodot » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:05 am

There is a famous monk in Sri Lanka who claims he had attained to the "Sakurdhagami hood". His name is Ven. Pitiduwe Siridhamma thero aka Sirisamantha baddhra thero.

Some people accuse him as a fraud monk. While some people follow him.

There are lot of videos of his dhamma speeches in youtube (in Sinhala Language though). I can't confirm he has really attained to the Sakurdhagami hood. But his teachings are interesting and make sense to me.

According to him "Any one who attained the Sothapanna, Sakrudagami, Anagami or Arahathhood, will declare that they achieved the goal for the betterment of other people but not keep silent and hide what he attained.

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Arahants

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:51 am

I think declarations of attainment should be best kept within the teacher-student relationship and not uttered elsewhere. If your teaching is SO good (because it is coming from an attained person) then it will become popular in its own right.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

User avatar
DAWN
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:22 pm

Re: Arahants

Postby DAWN » Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:16 pm

Ajahn Chah said that :
"If your mind tries to tell you it has already attained the level of sotapanna, go and bow to a sotapanna. He’ll tell you himself it’s all uncertain. If you meet a sakadagami, go and pay respects to him. When he sees you, he’ll simply say, "Not a sure thing!" If there’s an anagami, go and bow to him. He’ll tell you only one thing, "Uncertain!" If you meet even an arahant, go and bow to him. He’ll tell you even more firmly, "It’s all even more uncertain!" You’ll hear the words of the Noble Ones: "Everything is uncertain. Don’t cling to anything!"

There are no any Arahant in the World, just some kamma, who like a rain's drop that slide down the window glass. Is it an Arahant ?

Anywere, I think that if some one believes that his teacher is an Arahant, I think that there are some reasons to say that, and I think that this reasons are good, not bad, so anywere it's will be benificial to be lead by that person, and is not benificial to someone else trying to distroy this believe in some teacher who gives motivation end exepmle to enybody.
May be this exemple is not perfect, and we will find many reasons to say that this teacher is or is not an Arahant, but who can be perfect in Dhamma after The Buddha parinibbana?
If someone who is seeking the liberation have some wisdom, he can take what is good and drop what is bad. If he takes all, why he is called a seeker?
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...

hermitwin
Posts: 214
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:35 pm

Re: Arahants

Postby hermitwin » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:10 pm

The simple answer is we dont know bcos it takes an arahant to know another.
But logically there are arahants in this world, unless you believe that the true teachings of the Buddha no longer exist.
As long as the true teachings of the Buddha exist, there will be arahants in this world.
Where can we find one?
I suspect in the forests of Thailand, burma, sri lanka.
Once(2011) a monk was asked if he was enlightened. his answer, "try and make me angry".

whynotme
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:52 am

Re: Arahants

Postby whynotme » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:43 pm

Please stop following me

ohnofabrications
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:11 pm

Re: Arahants

Postby ohnofabrications » Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:04 am

I personally know someone who has told me that he/she is an arahant. he/she is a lay buddhist with a commitment and discernment I have never otherwise seen. I will not reveal his/her identity, but I will try to relate what he/she has told me both about her experience and how he/she practiced. he/she told me mainly for purposes of motivating me, describing his/her experience as a carrot on a stick like the buddha's 'practice as if your hair were on fire.' I am very grateful that he/she told me as it has massively improved my faith and persistence... it is one thing for some guys thousands of years to have done it, but apparently god's son was walking around too and there were dragons and shit. :tongue:

What he/she has told me of his/her experience:
An ever-present perfect equanimity and awareness of all conditions as well as a certain quality of 'joy' with regard to all of them. he/she reports that he/she is always aware of the occurrences at all 6 sense-doors simultaneously at all times. he/she reports a lack of emotion, the compassion inherent in her experience are experienced not as emotion but rather as an automatic tendency in action. Another aspect he/she reports is a complete lack of a feeling of 'presence' or 'being' or 'agency' rather thoughts, words, and deeds occur as if out of nowhere. Another aspect is that there is absolutely no sense of time passing, rather just a continuous moment. basically her experience is one of six senses, no emotional feelings, no tension, no control or agency, just the six senses occurring.

What he/she has told me of his/her practice:
He/she began practicing with body scanning and anapana. He/she didn't aim for absorption in his/her practice, just being undistracted such that he/she could observe sensations continuously with the aim of maximizing equanimity and seeing impermanence. He/she started with scanning, but eventually found it and anapana unnecessary due to his/her progress in equanimity and mindfulness (though she recommends using those methods until one is pretty far along), he/she switched then to a more all encompassing and fully accepting style of attention mimicking the state at which he/she was moving towards. One day while practicing in daily life off the cushion his/her experience shifted (after gradual increases over 10+ years) to fully selfless, fully equanimous, fully compassionate, fully without a sense of control, fully aware, all in complete continuousness at all times. He/she believes that practicing via attention and equanimity will cause a meditator to continue progressing as long as the meditator doesn't rest content at any stage short of perfect, continuous alertness and attamaya-uppekha. The person's #1 most stressed practice advice would probably be continuousness of attention.

I have known this person for some time and I find all their statements and actions to be congruent, their actions matching with their reports (constant compassion[in action] towards what he/she can control and constant equanimity towards what he/she can't). I have of course no certainty, but I also have no certainty of even the buddha's awakening or that arahantship and nibbana exist, regardless I think his/her advice is far from controversial, but perhaps it is good to know that there really are arahants out there.

I will answer any questions I can unless they in any way would help divulge the identity of this person. They have not asked me to conceal there identity nor do they know I am posting this or that I use this forum, and I don't think they would object even if I divulged their identity but regardless I will not do so. (you would almost definitely not know them by name anyway)

edit: another thing - this person said that it is likely due to their conditioning that they revealed their status, but they believe that there are plenty of arahants around just that their conditioning informs their decision not to share. they said that an arahants compassion is directed by their life experiences and intelligence, what they think will work and what they think won't, they don't know what the most compassionate thing to do for sure is but they do always do what seems to be the most compassionate thing.

edit2: I'd prefer to answer questions here so that I don't have to repeat myself, also I don't really care too much about defending this person's claim, I can't give anyone certainty about anything. as I said his/her advice is fairly non-controversial and I posted what I did mainly as a source of motivation for people, I don't want this to turn into a debate or a look-at-me thing... just as a source of faith that arahantship is possible and as a source of motivation from that faith. Don't wait around for certainty that it is possible, I don't think you will find any.

User avatar
purple planet
Posts: 653
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:07 am
Location: Israel

Re: Arahants

Postby purple planet » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:54 am

Hi - thanks for answering my private messages - i think you are right just didnt want to push you to put things public you dont want to


for me its great to hear that its reachable - even though i am not sure



does he do stuff for fun ? does he have hobbies ? and is he trying to "convince" as much people as possible to reach nirvana?

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Arahants

Postby Hanzze » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:53 am

Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

ohnofabrications
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:11 pm

Re: Arahants

Postby ohnofabrications » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:38 pm


twelph
Posts: 112
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:03 pm

Re: Arahants

Postby twelph » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:19 pm


ohnofabrications
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:11 pm

Re: Arahants

Postby ohnofabrications » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:32 pm

Hi twelph,

This person practiced with basically no guidance other than goenka retreats and his/her ingenuity. He/she believes that anapana can be taken all the way, as can body scanning and noting, but also finds it more effective at a certain point to do the all-inclusive/shikantaza-like practice.

twelph
Posts: 112
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:03 pm

Re: Arahants

Postby twelph » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:23 pm


User avatar
badscooter
Posts: 400
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:07 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Arahants

Postby badscooter » Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:09 pm

"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"

ohnofabrications
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:11 pm

Re: Arahants

Postby ohnofabrications » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:59 pm



Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine