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Rebirth in clasical theravada - Dhamma Wheel

Rebirth in clasical theravada

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

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Cittasanto
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Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:33 am

Do clasical theravadan teachings hold that rebirth is an importan teaching within the texts?
or do they hold that it happends but is not important to the aim of the path (Arahatship)?

just wondering if it is differnet to the modern theravadins who accept it as true.

Edit - I am only wanting to know the Clasical possition though.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:02 am

Seems quite important, and described in great detail in the Abhidhamma.

E.g A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma
By Anuruddha, Bhikkhu Bodhi, etc.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=hxo ... lQTussnmCQ

See this part of the Contents:
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=hxo ... Q#PPR13,M1

Mike

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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:10 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:51 am

Hi Retro,
That is what I suspected, but are there any schools of thought which hold is almost along the same lines of the Boddhisattva Vow in Mahayana (not the Boddhisatta vow of Theravada which is to my understanding to become the next or future Samasambuddha or their discipleto help them) as an essential teaching?


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:57 am

Greetings Manapa,

It's interesting, because I can't recall anything I've come across in the commentaries or Visuddhimagga ever saying anything like "this teaching is really important" or "this one is just peripheral"... they just give the commentarial perspective on the matter, without commenting on the perceived importance of it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:05 am


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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:07 am

Hi Retro,
Yeah I thought their wasn't anything like that, and thought it was used in the suttas more to help people more than something essential to the practice as a whole (lifetime too lifetime not the moment to moment).

Anyway think this has covered my curiosity for now.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:36 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:32 am


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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby kc2dpt » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:56 pm

- Peter


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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:23 pm


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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:56 pm


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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby cooran » Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:11 pm

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:22 am

But is it important to the path?
the unshakable belief that it actually happens, so much so that you go out looking for the evidence ie tulkus, or the stories that abound of children remembering their past lives.
is it that important to the path in the clasical sense?

Edit the quote Bhante uses above (mine) can be read as Mundane right view being the first line, the second line what is the Ariyan Right view in the clasical sense


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Ben
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby Ben » Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:37 am

Hi Manapa

I think at this point I would recommend that you do those things which are germane to your practice. As my teacher says from time to time put to the side anything which at the moment appears unacceptable. In time, as a result of your practice, you will develop greater saddha in the Buddha's omniscience and teaching, as you will also develop penetrative insight into the nature of all things, including the question of rebirth.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:18 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jun 12, 2009 1:25 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:54 am


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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:00 am

- Peter


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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:07 am

Greetings,

What Peter says is well captured in...

MN 60: Apannaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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