Purely mental absorption (jhana) in the suttas

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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reflection
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Re: Purely mental absorption (jhana) in the suttas

Post by reflection »

Well, I didn't want to charge at others view, so I left it open to interpretation. But yeah, "desire of desire" sounds a bit strange. It's more reasonable to say the escape from the 5 senses is through letting go the desire for the five senses. This seems to me more a recipe for non-returning than it does for jhana (although it could both be inferred, subduing referring to jhana, abandoning to non-returning), but still the reasoning stays the same, "desire of desire" is obviously not what the Buddha was pointing to to here.

Thank you for SN35.13, I'll see if I can look at it later.
daverupa
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Re: Purely mental absorption (jhana) in the suttas

Post by daverupa »

reflection wrote:It's more reasonable to say the escape from the 5 senses is through letting go the desire for the five senses.
Quite so. MN 13: "And what, bhikkhus, is the escape in the case of sensual pleasures? It is the removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust for sensual pleasures. This is the escape in the case of sensual pleasures."

Thanissaro: "And what, monks, is the escape from sensuality? The subduing of desire-passion for sensuality, the abandoning of desire-passion for sensuality: That is the escape from sensuality."

('Removal', 'abandonment' perhaps emphasize an energetic connotation as over against 'letting go'. It is important to evoke right effort.)
reflection wrote:This seems to me more a recipe for non-returning than it does for jhana (although it could both be inferred, subduing referring to jhana, abandoning to non-returning)
Since the four ariyan stages, as a unit, aren't really brought up in jhana contexts very often, it's probably useful to set them aside as unrelated markers while discussing this particular aspect of the gradual training, i.e. jhana. With respect to the recipe analogy, jhana is an (essential) ingredient, while the four ariyan stages are various baked goods.

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Sylvester
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Re: Purely mental absorption (jhana) in the suttas

Post by Sylvester »

daverupa wrote:
reflection wrote:It's more reasonable to say the escape from the 5 senses is through letting go the desire for the five senses.
Quite so. MN 13: "And what, bhikkhus, is the escape in the case of sensual pleasures? It is the removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust for sensual pleasures. This is the escape in the case of sensual pleasures."

Thanissaro: "And what, monks, is the escape from sensuality? The subduing of desire-passion for sensuality, the abandoning of desire-passion for sensuality: That is the escape from sensuality."

('Removal', 'abandonment' perhaps emphasize an energetic connotation as over against 'letting go'. It is important to evoke right effort.)
Hee hee. If the Paṃsudhovaka Sutta, AN 3.100 is anything to go by, the samadhi with effort is termed sasaṅkhāraniggayhavāritagata (held at bay (niggayha) by the restraint and control (vāritavata) of the active will (sasaṅkhāra) - per Ajahn Brahmali's translation). The superior samadhi is said to be na sasaṅkhāraniggayhavāritagata (NOT held at bay (niggayha) by the restraint and control (vāritavata) of the active will (sasaṅkhāra)). This seems consistent with DN 9's description of the Jhanas as states bereft of volition.

This na sasaṅkhāraniggayhavāritagata business pops up again in AN 9.37

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This sutta is a mainstay resort for the "conscious of body" Jhana interpretation, owing to Ven Ananda's answer to this query -
When not sensitive to that dimension, my friend, one is percipient of what?

Ananda - There is the case where, with the complete transcending of perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' one enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. This is one way of being percipient when not sensitive to that dimension.

etc etc for the next 2 formless attainments.
What's always overlooked is that Ven Ananda then gives a further example of how one may be percipient when not sensitive to that dimension -
Ekamidāhaṃ, āvuso, samayaṃ sākete viharāmi añjanavane migadāye. Atha kho, āvuso, jaṭilavāsikā bhikkhunī yenāhaṃ tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā maṃ abhivādetvā ekamantaṃ aṭṭhāsi. Ekamantaṃ ṭhitā kho, āvuso, jaṭilavāsikā bhikkhunī maṃ etadavoca— ‘yāyaṃ, bhante ānanda, samādhi na cābhinato na cāpanato na ca sasaṅkhāraniggayhavāritagato, vimuttattā ṭhito, ṭhitattā santusito, santusitattā no paritassati. Ayaṃ, bhante ānanda, samādhi kiṃphalo vutto bhagavatā’ti?

308Evaṃ vutte, sohaṃ, āvuso, jaṭilavāsikaṃ bhikkhuniṃ etadavocaṃ— ‘yāyaṃ, bhagini, samādhi na cābhinato na cāpanato na ca sasaṅkhāraniggayhavāritagato, vimuttattā ṭhito, ṭhitattā santusito, santusitattā no paritassati. Ayaṃ, bhagini, samādhi aññāphalo vutto bhagavatā’ti. Evaṃsaññīpi kho, āvuso, tadāyatanaṃ no paṭisaṃvedetī”ti.

Ven T's translation -

Once, friend, when I was staying in Saketa at the Game Refuge in the Black Forest, the nun Jatila Bhagika went to where I was staying, and on arrival — having bowed to me — stood to one side. As she was standing there, she said to me: 'The concentration whereby — neither pressed down nor forced back, nor with fabrication kept blocked or suppressed — still as a result of release, contented as a result of standing still, and as a result of contentment one is not agitated: This concentration is said by the Blessed One to be the fruit of what?'

"I said to her, 'Sister, the concentration whereby — neither pressed down nor forced back, nor with fabrication kept blocked or suppressed — still as a result of release, contented as a result of standing still, and as a result of contentment one is not agitated: This concentration is said by the Blessed One to be the fruit of gnosis.'[1] This is another way of being percipient when not sensitive to that dimension."
:anjali:
daverupa
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Re: Purely mental absorption (jhana) in the suttas

Post by daverupa »

I see satipatthana as a near-synonym of jhana, as one is to develop it with vitakka-vicara, then with vicara, and then without either. So, samadhi without effort perhaps correlates with "...born of samadhi/unification of mind" and not "...born of seclusion" in the pericopes for the first two jhanas. Indeed, we can see the anapanasati lines "...calming bodily fabrication/calming mental fabrication/releasing the mind" as instructions for enacting this transition.

In any event, I'm disinclined to see a lack of will in jhana, as I consider that one directs ones mind to the destruction of the taints from within (fourth) jhana; the calming of fabrications is one thing, but the presence of right effort within the Samadhi category of the Path means that the suggestion that right effort drops away in right samadhi is wholly mysterious to me.

Finally, AN 9.37 is an odd one, in that it talks of the formless attainments without mentioning jhana at all. I'm fairly suspicious of conclusions about jhana built up on that sort of thing, but mileage varies.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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reflection
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Re: Purely mental absorption (jhana) in the suttas

Post by reflection »

For those interested, from time to time I keep editing the first post. Just now I added a bit of commentary (= personal interpretation) to MN 140. Feel free to comment.
Sylvester
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Re: Purely mental absorption (jhana) in the suttas

Post by Sylvester »

Hi dave

You do have some insightful observations.
daverupa wrote:I see satipatthana as a near-synonym of jhana, as one is to develop it with vitakka-vicara, then with vicara, and then without either. So, samadhi without effort perhaps correlates with "...born of samadhi/unification of mind" and not "...born of seclusion" in the pericopes for the first two jhanas. Indeed, we can see the anapanasati lines "...calming bodily fabrication/calming mental fabrication/releasing the mind" as instructions for enacting this transition.
If you are thinking of MN 125's transition from satipatthana directly to 2nd Jhana, it's been observed by BB and Ven Analayo that the Chinese parallel has 1st Jhana in the nexus. It looks likely that MN 125 may have suffered a transmission loss of the 1st Jhana, given that one Pali variant reading shows a transmission loss of even the 4th Jhana.
In any event, I'm disinclined to see a lack of will in jhana, as I consider that one directs ones mind to the destruction of the taints from within (fourth) jhana; the calming of fabrications is one thing, but the presence of right effort within the Samadhi category of the Path means that the suggestion that right effort drops away in right samadhi is wholly mysterious to me.
The "within" concept perhaps suggests itself from the English translation of the superknowledge pericopes ("with his mind thus concentrated, etc"). Yet, this is not evident in the Pali, which uses one of the 2 locative absolute constructions to indicate that the temporal disjunction of the samāhita (concentrated) and the abhininnāmeti (directs).
So evaṃ samāhite citte - parisuddhe, pariyodāte, anaṅgaṇe, vigatūpakkilese, mudubhūte, kammaniye, ṭhite, āneñjappatte, .... pubbenivāsānussatiñāṇāya cittaṃ abhininnāmesiṃ. .
In this form of the locative absolute (locatives of both noun and past participle), the event of the concentrated mind precedes the work on the superknowledges. If the reciters had intended contemporaneity of the samāhita citta and the verb abhininnāmeti, they would have used the genitive absolute construction for this.

It's very unfortunate that VT elected to re-write DN 9 to limit the absence of volition to the Sphere of Nothingness. I could not find a variant reading of DN 9 that supports his translation. Somehow, when he blatantly presses a distortion of the text to support his discursive Jhana model, it just makes one wonder what else has been distorted.
Finally, AN 9.37 is an odd one, in that it talks of the formless attainments without mentioning jhana at all. I'm fairly suspicious of conclusions about jhana built up on that sort of thing, but mileage varies.
Actually, it does mention the Jhanas, almost as an afterthought. Ven Ananda's account of his chat with Jatila Bhagika sets the stage for the Jhanas being included within "how one may be percipient when not sensitive to that dimension". Elsewhere, na sasaṅkhāraniggayhavāritagata samādhi is understood to be Jhana. This term crops up often enough (DN, SN, AN) to give a fairly consistent picture of it being a description of Jhana.
danieLion
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Re: Purely mental absorption (jhana) in the suttas

Post by danieLion »

Sylvester wrote:Now, if we can get back to the business at hand, ie the meaning of kāmā in the kāmā seclusion pericope, please share what you understand kāmā/sensuality/sensual pleasure to mean in this pericope within the Pali and in the translations.
So Rev. T shares a the meaning of a word with the Abhidhamma. So what?

Rev. Gunaratna's piece near the end of this Five Hindrances section of his The Jhanas in Theravada Buddhist Meditation is a good practical description of the pericope's meaning. It doesn't mean secluding your body from your mind, if that's what you're driving at.
Sylvester wrote:PS - re the differences between BB's and VT's rendering of pañcakāmaguṇā, it' doesn't seem to be relevant to talk about plural or singular here, since the plurality is obviously with reference to the noun guṇā, rather than the noun kāma. The lemma kāma could have been inflected in either the singular or plural within the compound. Both have however translated the lemma to be in the singular. VT's translation harks back to an old explanation I recall him giving for the kāmaguṇā being akin to the strings of an instrument producing music; his analogy being that the kāmaguṇā when touched produces desire. BB's translation also has kāma in the singular, but referring to a pleasant feeling, rather than desire. The doctrinal impact of this difference is significant, depending on whether or not one accepts the suttas' tajja/correspondence model in describing the types of feelings that can arise with particular objects of cognition.
Thanks. I'll take it into consideration.
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Re: Purely mental absorption (jhana) in the suttas

Post by Sylvester »

danieLion wrote: So Rev. T shares a the meaning of a word with the Abhidhamma. So what?
Let me count the ways it matters -

1. If I discount any praxis considerations and indulge purely in academic ruminations, textual criticism deems it of importance to know what words mean in different strata of texts. Confusing meanings have demonstrable problems - witness Ven Buddhaghosa's difficulties in explaining why the kāmā seclusion formula was predicated with "eva", while the other seclusion formula was not. Another difficulty that presents with the Vibhanga definition was the glaring absence of the adjective "other" in the akusala dhammā pericope, as if kāmā were not an akusala dhamma. Witness the ridiculous results that reflection and I have pointed out with VT's use of "sensuality" in the ubiquitous allure, drawback and escape analyses of kāmā. If the critical apparatus exists, as it does in the CPD, why not use them, instead of jumbling up sutta connotations with Abhidhammic ones, when they lead to unreadable passages such as VT's "sensuality" would necessitate with MN 13?

2. From a praxis perspective, I need to know what the texts actually mean, and I wasted many years of my study and practice believing VT's discursive Jhana model. I've seen more than enough of VT's attempts to (a) exploit the English reader's unfamiliarity with Pali grammar to change the connotation of Pali texts (especially in the temporal grammatical constructions), and (b) re-writing Pali texts to suit his Jhana model. It was extremely difficult for me to shake off my previous faith in his translations - there was something very powerful to cling on to, namely identification of my meditations with his "jhanas". It would be far easier for me to rest on my laurels, having fulfilled his Jhana criteria, but a critical reading of the texts simply does not allow me the luxury of such a lie any longer.

It is for this reason that "practical" descriptions are, IMO, a poor yardstick for the interpretation of texts. Whether it is Ajahn Thanissaro's or Bhante G's or Ajahn Brahm's or Ajahn Sujato's or Ven Buddhaghosa's, all claims to being the right interpretation must be measured against the suttas.

Now that it has become apparent that VT's "sensuality" carries no plural connotation (contrary to your belief), would you indulge me by telling me what you think kāmā in the 1st Jhana's vivic'eva kāmehi pericope means?
daverupa
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Re: Purely mental absorption (jhana) in the suttas

Post by daverupa »

Sylvester wrote:If you are thinking of MN 125...
Yes, although only in terms of housing satipatthana around a particular grade of the gradual training. I say "near-synonym" given satipatthana's transitional potential, exemplified by anapanasati.
Sylvester wrote:The "within" concept... temporal disjunction... the event of the concentrated mind precedes the work...
Hmm. Well, considering that we define jhana as the cessation of certain processes and the arising and/or continuation of other processes, I see "within" as referring to work done concomitant with a constellation of processes which conform thereby. I do not see any clear reason to suggest that there is a substantive change between the arising of jhana and the direction of attention as instructed.

The transition to second jhana can be seen as the habituation of satipatthana, but before this happens there is work to be done. AN 9.36 shows something of this with its metaphor (although here again there are some formless intrusions; nevertheless they do not detract from the point. "He regards" may not be a matter of will so much as a matter of wisdom, but it becomes a semantic argument when the effort to see clearly with wisdom is nowhere described as 'just happening', as though simply a fortuitous reward for wallowing in jhana).
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Sylvester
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Re: Purely mental absorption (jhana) in the suttas

Post by Sylvester »

Hi dave
daverupa wrote:
Hmm. Well, considering that we define jhana as the cessation of certain processes and the arising and/or continuation of other processes, I see "within" as referring to work done concomitant with a constellation of processes which conform thereby. I do not see any clear reason to suggest that there is a substantive change between the arising of jhana and the direction of attention as instructed.
It's simply a question of whether or not we -

1. pay heed to the grammatical construction of the locative absolute used in that pericope; and
2. accept DN 9 as a genuine record of the Buddha's teaching of the cessation of volition in the Jhanas.

The transition to second jhana can be seen as the habituation of satipatthana, but before this happens there is work to be done. AN 9.36 shows something of this with its metaphor (although here again there are some formless intrusions; nevertheless they do not detract from the point. "He regards" may not be a matter of will so much as a matter of wisdom, but it becomes a semantic argument when the effort to see clearly with wisdom is nowhere described as 'just happening', as though simply a fortuitous reward for wallowing in jhana).
This is more complex, and I will raise several points for your consideration -

A. Is the verb "he regards" (samanupassati) a discursive verb or a non-discursive verb?

A quick scan of the suttas shows this popping up not just in the Jhana passages, but in passages describing ordinary worldling formation of self-views, eg SN 22.100, MN 148. You also find this verb appear in the Hindrances formula which portray a monk regarding the Hindrances as a debt etc, eg in DN 11, MN 39. Unlike the anupassati encountered in satipaṭṭhāna (which admits of a bare awareness connotation), samanupassati suggests a much more analytical and discursive character.

B. This brings immediately 2 doctrinal problems. How does this discursive activity square with DN 9? Even if one rejects DN 9, there is also the problem that samanupassati occurs in the 2nd to 4th Jhanas in AN 9.36. I know you will probably argue that samanupassati is possible in 1st Jhana, owing to the presence to the vacīsaṅkhāra. However, this would disturb the standard way in which suttas employ sets or series which are defined by common denominators. Such an argument would mean that samanupassati means discursive contemplation in 1st Jhana, but the same verb would mean non-discursive contemplation in 2nd to 4th Jhanas.

C. The perennial present tense problem. If you take a look at the grammars, Pali present tenses just don't function in the way that English present tenses function, unlike what Ven T likes us to believe. Take a look at Warder, where the Pali present tense is described as -

- describing the indefinite present
- proxy for the past tense (which explains the gradual loss of the aorist from the Canon with formalisation)
- describing eternal truths
- an imperative
- compartmentalizing a verb's duration
- describing a future event.

Pali simply uses other grammatical devices to indicate contemporaneity of verbs, such as the genitive absolute. This really needs to be said, as Ven T's Jhana model extracts undue mileage from the unfamiliar range of Pali present tense verbs.
danieLion
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Re: Purely mental absorption (jhana) in the suttas

Post by danieLion »

Sylvester wrote:
danieLion wrote: So Rev. T shares a the meaning of a word with the Abhidhamma. So what?
Let me count the ways it matters -

1. If I discount any praxis considerations and indulge purely in academic ruminations, textual criticism deems it of importance to know what words mean in different strata of texts. Confusing meanings have demonstrable problems - witness Ven Buddhaghosa's difficulties in explaining why the kāmā seclusion formula was predicated with "eva", while the other seclusion formula was not. Another difficulty that presents with the Vibhanga definition was the glaring absence of the adjective "other" in the akusala dhammā pericope, as if kāmā were not an akusala dhamma. Witness the ridiculous results that reflection and I have pointed out with VT's use of "sensuality" in the ubiquitous allure, drawback and escape analyses of kāmā. If the critical apparatus exists, as it does in the CPD, why not use them, instead of jumbling up sutta connotations with Abhidhammic ones, when they lead to unreadable passages such as VT's "sensuality" would necessitate with MN 13?

2. From a praxis perspective, I need to know what the texts actually mean, and I wasted many years of my study and practice believing VT's discursive Jhana model. I've seen more than enough of VT's attempts to (a) exploit the English reader's unfamiliarity with Pali grammar to change the connotation of Pali texts (especially in the temporal grammatical constructions), and (b) re-writing Pali texts to suit his Jhana model. It was extremely difficult for me to shake off my previous faith in his translations - there was something very powerful to cling on to, namely identification of my meditations with his "jhanas". It would be far easier for me to rest on my laurels, having fulfilled his Jhana criteria, but a critical reading of the texts simply does not allow me the luxury of such a lie any longer.

It is for this reason that "practical" descriptions are, IMO, a poor yardstick for the interpretation of texts. Whether it is Ajahn Thanissaro's or Bhante G's or Ajahn Brahm's or Ajahn Sujato's or Ven Buddhaghosa's, all claims to being the right interpretation must be measured against the suttas.

Now that it has become apparent that VT's "sensuality" carries no plural connotation (contrary to your belief), would you indulge me by telling me what you think kāmā in the 1st Jhana's vivic'eva kāmehi pericope means?
Wait. Are you one of those people who believes words and their meaning(s) always have a one-to-one correspondence? That's not very practical (when I say practical in this topic I'm referring to something similar to Reflection's practice emphases, not textual descriptions, per se).
danieLion
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Re: Purely mental absorption (jhana) in the suttas

Post by danieLion »

Sylvester wrote:...From a praxis perspective, I need to know what the texts actually mean....
Why? The practitioners who did it before the texts existed didn't, and plenty of meditators after that--up to contemporary times, e.g., Ajaan Chah--didn't.
danieLion
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Re: Purely mental absorption (jhana) in the suttas

Post by danieLion »

Sylvester wrote:
danieLion wrote: So Rev. T shares a the meaning of a word with the Abhidhamma. So what?
Let me count the ways it matters -...
You only got up to 2. Is that it?
Sylvester
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Re: Purely mental absorption (jhana) in the suttas

Post by Sylvester »

danieLion wrote: Wait. Are you one of those people who believes words and their meaning(s) always have a one-to-one correspondence? That's not very practical (when I say practical in this topic I'm referring to something similar to Reflection's practice emphases, not textual descriptions, per se).
I hope not. I've been a big fan of acknowledging polysemy in Pali words.
Why? The practitioners who did it before the texts existed didn't, and plenty of meditators after that--up to contemporary times, e.g., Ajaan Chah--didn't.
Because the Disciples had the verbal instructions of the Buddha, instead of written documents. As for modern practitioners, can you be certain that they did not resort to texts? Do you know them personally, or are you relying on some romantic hagiography? Even without written texts, they would still have received oral instructions. The Ajahn Chah example is not quite right - his disciple Peter recalls his elephantine ability to chant long suttas (substantive ones, and not blessings), and the narrative of his meeting with Ajahn Mun indicates that he had been actually working for a long time with the Visudhimagga. He seems also to have dipped into some Commentarial literature, eg the Tuccho Potthila story traceable to the Dhammapada Commentary.

More importantly, I am simply not as gifted as these meditators.
You only got up to 2. Is that it?
Yes.

Now that we've got that meta-discussion about ME out of the way, let's returns to the first level discussion about kāmā in the 1st Jhana's vivic'eva kāmehi pericope. You've hinted that VT's "sensuality" versus BB's "sensual pleasures" were not that different, since you thought "sensuality" was contextually plural. reflection has shown that VT uses it in a clear singular sense. That being so, what exactly do you understand by the abovesaid kāmā? Or you have no wish to ventillate your views?
danieLion
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Re: Purely mental absorption (jhana) in the suttas

Post by danieLion »

Sylvester wrote:You've hinted that VT's "sensuality" versus BB's "sensual pleasures" were not that different, since you thought "sensuality" was contextually plural. reflection has shown that VT uses it in a clear singular sense....
Reflection has not done this.
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