New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Billymac,

Yes, thank you for that.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
dhammapal
Posts: 2647
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:23 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by dhammapal »

Hi,

I found this concise explanation:
Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:...be very clear about what you're keeping in mind, which is the meaning of mindfulness. To have a purpose in mind, what you're planning to do, and then your ability to remember that: That's mindfulness. As for actually watching what's going on, that's called alertness. You need both qualities, but it helps to know which is which.
From: On the Path of the Breath by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
With metta / dhammapal.
dhammapal
Posts: 2647
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:23 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by dhammapal »

Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:So it's not the case that people can just walk in off the street, sit down, and develop mindfulness. It takes the ability to look at your life and make some decisions about how you're going to live, and how you understand the best way of living. That's when mindfulness has a chance.
From: How to Feed Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
With metta / dhammapal.
User avatar
badscooter
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:07 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by badscooter »

Here is the Venerable Yuttadhammo's position on mindfulness. Bhante Yuttadhammo is of the Mahasi Sayadaw's lineage (as is Goldstein)
An excerpt:
"The first step in our progress, the first factor of enlightenment, is called “sati”. “sati” is a word that should be familiar to most Buddhists; unfortunately, however, it is often understood quite loosely, even incorrectly. Generally translated as “mindfulness”, it is usually taken to mean “awareness” or “alertness”, both of which are ostensibly positive qualities of mind. “sati”, however, means neither.

The word “sati” comes from a root (sara) that means to remember, or recollect. This root is used in the standard form of “going for refuge” to the Buddha, his teachings and his enlightened followers, for example: “buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi” – “I go to the Buddha as a saraṇa”. The word “saraṇa” is generally translated as “refuge”, which it can indeed mean. The word also means, however, “object of recollection”, i.e. something to recollect in times of difficulty.

Indeed, this is exactly what the Buddha encouraged us to do when we are in distress. He said, “maṃ anussareyyātha” – “you should recollect me”, because thoughts on the perfection of the Buddha would console us in times of despair. Similar practices exist in many of the world’s religions to bring faith and courage in times of difficulty, there is nothing particularly Buddhist in it.

From this explanation, though, we can see that the word “sati”, the very basis on which we are to build our practice, has something to do with calling to mind, or keeping in mind. The word sati is sometimes used to refer to recollecting about things that have happened in the past or future as well. In the context of the factors of enlightenment, however, it refers only to recollection of the present moment. What it really means is to call to mind the objective nature of the experience, eschewing all projection, extrapolation or judgement about the object.

According to the Abhidhamma, sati arises based on fortified recognition (thīra-saññā). Whereas ordinary recognition (saññā) is not enough to keep the mind in objective awareness, once we fortify or reaffirm this recognition, not letting the mind move beyond simple awareness of the object for what it is, our minds will penetrate the nature of the object to the core, dispelling all doubt as its essential nature as something worth clinging to or not.

So, sati would be better translated as “recognition”, and this is how it has been referred to throughout this chapter. It is deliberate and sustained recognition that in turn allows us to see the objects of experience as they truly are.

This explanation, which may seem a bit dry to some readers, is necessary to help us understand what the Buddha really meant in the Satipaṭṭḥāna Sutta, when he said, as quoted earlier, “when walking, one fully comprehends: ‘I am walking’.” It is clear that he did not mean that we should be aware that we are walking, since awareness is common to animals and ordinary people alike. Simply recognizing that we are walking is something that requires no meditative training whatsoever.

To “fully comprehend” (pajānāti), one must cultivate the mental quality of “sati” or fortified recognition (thīra-saññā) by reminding oneself of the essential nature of the experience, as in “walking”. Reminding oneself of what one already recognizes in this way is equivalent to arresting the mind’s natural progression into projecting, judging, clinging, seeking, building up, and finally suffering.

Another way of understanding this activity of fortifying one’s recognition is as a mantra, a traditional meditative tool that has been used for millennia by meditators both Buddhist and non. A mantra is used to focus the mind on an object, arresting the mind’s natural inclination to jump from object to object. It is traditionally used to focus on a conceptual object, something a meditator conjures up in the mind, a picture or a spiritual object like a god or angel.

A mantra can, however, be used in much the same way in order to fix the mind on a real object as well, be it a physical sensation, a feeling, a thought, or an emotion. This is one way of understanding the word “sati” in the context of the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta; it is the use of a mantra to stabilize and fortify one’s bare recognition of an experience for what it is, allowing one to see clearly without prejudice or projection and thus remove any misapprehensions based on delusion or ignorance.

Once we cultivate sati, our minds will naturally incline towards observing the nature of phenomena; just as how a person who sees a tiger also sees its stripes, observation of the characteristics of every object of one’s experience will become unavoidable. One will be forced to see clearly the true nature of everything one clings to, as well as the result of such clinging. One will see that the objects of experience are universally impermanent, unsatisfying, and uncontrollable; one will see that clinging to such entities is akin to banging one’s head off of a wall – painful and utterly without purpose. "
Do you see any distinctions between the this and Thanissaro's work?

BTW: Bhante uses the word mantra to describe the labeling technique used in some forms of vipassana. :)

:anjali:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
dhammapal
Posts: 2647
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:23 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by dhammapal »

Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:In other words, as we look for happiness, we focus first on actions that don't constitute ultimate happiness but can be used as the path: things like mindfulness, persistence, and concentration. At that stage, the Buddha doesn't have us focus too much on these three characteristics. He has us focus primarily on the doing. As part of the doing, we hold on to other perceptions: the perception of breath, say, or the perception of whatever our meditation object is. We make that prominent. And we try to push that perception into a state of solid concentration — which means that we're pushing it in the direction of making it constant and easeful, and getting it under our control.

In this way, we're actually fighting the three characteristics as we try to bring the mind into concentration. We push to see how far we can find a happiness based on conditioned things. One reason for this is that if you don't push at a truth until it pushes back, you won't know how strong it is. Another reason is that we're going to need that conditioned happiness, that sense of relatively solid wellbeing, to put ourselves in a position where we can look at things very carefully as they come to be. That phrase, "as they come to be," comes into play when we're no longer pushing. But we've got to push first.
From: Three Perceptions by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
With metta / dhammapal.
User avatar
badscooter
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:07 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by badscooter »

So does anybody see any distinctions between Yuttadhammo and Thanissaro?
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
twelph
Posts: 112
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:03 pm

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by twelph »

Billymac29 wrote:So does anybody see any distinctions between Yuttadhammo and Thanissaro?
Yes. Yuttadhammo believes in there being no judgments placed upon the objects(thoughts). He talks about "pure awareness". Thanisarro maintains that discernment is necessary, and that we are always having perceptions of these objects. In the book he questions the notion of this pure awareness and has several arguments against it's existence.

This book was very revealing for me, and cleared up several issues I have had in the past. A list of things that really helped me out:

1) He establishes that all four foundations of mindfulness can and should be seen while maintaining a solid grounding in the breathe.
2) Anapanasati is not sequential.
3) The first jhanna can be maintained all day except when talking and going to sleep (very important!)
4) Rapture is neither a pleasant or unpleasant feeling. He has stopped using the word pleasure to describe the energy that is felt through rapture. This is also noticeable in his most recent dhamma talks.
5) Explanations as to why he believes the suttas supports breathe manipulation.

I recommend reading this book even if you have issues with the introduction.

Edit: It also doesn't hurt that this book gives some of the clearest and concise meditation instructions I have ever witnessed, all while constantly referencing the suttas. Yes this may just be one translator's interpretation , but he provides very well reasoned justifications and references.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by tiltbillings »

twelph wrote:
. . . It also doesn't hurt that this book gives some of the clearest and concise meditation instructions I have ever witnessed, all while constantly referencing the suttas. Yes this may just be one translator's interpretation , but he provides very well reasoned justifications and references.
Maybe, or he is expressing his interpretation of things, which is okay, but it is his interpretation of things.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
twelph
Posts: 112
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:03 pm

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by twelph »

tiltbillings wrote:
twelph wrote:
. . . It also doesn't hurt that this book gives some of the clearest and concise meditation instructions I have ever witnessed, all while constantly referencing the suttas. Yes this may just be one translator's interpretation , but he provides very well reasoned justifications and references.
Maybe, or he is expressing his interpretation of things, which is okay, but it is his interpretation of things.
I believe we just stated the same thing...
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by tiltbillings »

twelph wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
twelph wrote:
. . . It also doesn't hurt that this book gives some of the clearest and concise meditation instructions I have ever witnessed, all while constantly referencing the suttas. Yes this may just be one translator's interpretation , but he provides very well reasoned justifications and references.
Maybe, or he is expressing his interpretation of things, which is okay, but it is his interpretation of things.
I believe we just stated the same thing...
Except that I would not say that he gave the clearest and concise meditation instruction, etc.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Goob
Posts: 98
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:14 pm

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by Goob »

Except that I would not say that he gave the clearest and concise meditation instruction, etc.
What exactly do you find problematic in Ven. T's interpretation of the relevant suttas and meditation instructions? I am not being defensive, just curious.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by tiltbillings »

richard_rca wrote:
Except that I would not say that he gave the clearest and concise meditation instruction, etc.
What exactly do you find problematic in Ven. T's interpretation of the relevant suttas and meditation instructions? I am not being defensive, just curious.
Let me ask you: Are the suttas quoted by Ven Thanissaro open to other interpretations in terms of practice? Is his way of looking at things the only correct way and every one else's is wrong?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Goob
Posts: 98
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:14 pm

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by Goob »

Let me ask you: Are the suttas quoted by Ven Thanissaro open to other interpretations in terms of practice? Is his way of looking at things the only correct way and every one else's is wrong?
My answer would be "no", there are plenty of useful and excellent interpretations out there aside from Ven Thannisaro's. I just like the way he frames things. The defensiveness in your answer is exactly why I wrote that I wasn't being protective either of my own practice or of Ven. T's interpretations, I would just simply like to know what exactly in his meditation instructions and his sutta interpretations you find questionable since you passively implied that you did and you seem to be a person who possesses a great deal of knowledge of these matters. Curiosity, no more, no less.
User avatar
badscooter
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:07 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by badscooter »

twelph wrote: Yes. Yuttadhammo believes in there being no judgments placed upon the objects(thoughts). He talks about "pure awareness".
I don't believe so.. VY stated:
"Generally translated as “mindfulness”, it is usually taken to mean “awareness” or “alertness”, both of which are ostensibly positive qualities of mind. “sati”, however, means neither."
with metta
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
User avatar
badscooter
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:07 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by badscooter »

VY stated
So, sati would be better translated as “recognition”, and this is how it has been referred to throughout this chapter. It is deliberate and sustained recognition that in turn allows us to see the objects of experience as they truly are.
I believe you are saying the same thing.

When VY is talking about "this chapter", it is of his own book that he is writing.

:anjali:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
Post Reply