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Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna - Dhamma Wheel

Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Parth
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Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby Parth » Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:09 am

I remember having read somewhere that in one of the pregious births of Gautama Buddha, he kept on donating for several years to all who came to seek, further he states that all that Dana had a lesser merit than what would come of one time feeding / donating to a single sotapanna ( which he could not do at that point since the were no Ariyas existing in human world at that time).

Now my question is suppose somebody has a son/ daughter who becomes a sotapanna ( and continues to be a householder) in such a case would the parents / friends / other relatives of that person not gain extraordinary merit by virtue of offering food/ gifts/ other normal courtesies to that individual in normal course of life ( even if this individual does not disclose his attainments).

Metta

Parth

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manas
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby manas » Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:13 am

I read once that we 'obtain merit' even just by throwing out scraps of food into the wild, with the thought "may any living beings who are able to, make use of this as food" or words to that effect. If feeding a human being, more 'merit'; and if feeding a saint, even more.

But personally, I prefer to think of searching out for the one in greatest need, rather than for 'how much merit I can make' for myself. Thus, if I saw a starving beggar child on one side of the road, and an already well-attended to sotapanna on the other, I would think to myself "well it looks as though the sotapanna already has enough to eat for today, so I will give this food to the starving child instead." I would actually be quite happy to sacrifice my 'extra merit points' in this way.

But as to your original question - the answer is yes, as I understand it. Even unknowingly feeding an ariya would have great benefit for the donor. Apparently the Universe makes distinctions like this. Can't argue with the Universe, I guess! :shrug:

metta :anjali:
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Goofaholix
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby Goofaholix » Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:05 am


Parth
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby Parth » Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:20 am


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Dan74
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby Dan74 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:40 am

Are you thinking of anyone in particular?
_/|\_

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Goofaholix
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby Goofaholix » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:39 pm


Parth
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby Parth » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:47 am


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acinteyyo
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby acinteyyo » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:09 am

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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kirk5a
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby kirk5a » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:27 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

whynotme
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby whynotme » Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:06 pm

Please stop following me

santa100
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby santa100 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:52 pm

For me, even between a hungry child and a healthy sammasambuddha, I'd definitely give to the hungry child without hesitation. I think this is what the Buddha really meant when He taught that the merit of giving to a sammasambuddha is still much less than a moment of practicing metta or contemplating impermanence..

Parth
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby Parth » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:34 pm


santa100
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby santa100 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:15 am

If you have enough to give to both, then it wouldn't be a problem to start out with right? Back to your original question, there's no doubt that one'd gain great merit by offering to a sotapanna, but according to the Buddha, that merit is only a grain of sand compared to a moment of practicing metta or contemplation on impermanence..

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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby whynotme » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:24 am

Please stop following me

santa100
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby santa100 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:01 pm

Too much merit could be a dangerous thing. The suttas mentioned that a deva who enjoys all the luxury and comfort in their heavenly world wouldn't tend to see the necessity and the urgency for Dhamma practice. A more important question is that given all the merits that you have, what are you gonna do with them? If one doesn't learn and practice the Buddha's teaching, s/he could have merits the size of mount Meru and they wouldn't do a thing to help delivering one from samsara..

Parth
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby Parth » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:08 pm


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DAWN
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby DAWN » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:28 pm

To obtain a "Buddha machine"
we must take 1 sotapanna and 1 layman
when layman offer food to sotapanna, sotapanna offer the same food to lay man, after, layman offer again to sotapanna, and sotapanna retourn it to layman... Until they will librated :toast:

But seriosly:

Mind is like a mirrow. Ariya have a clear and smooth mirrow, also his mind is concentrated, so if you do somethink to Ariya, its will be reflect exacltly, and will be multiplied by thousand millions, like a sun light becomes a fire if we focused it by lens.

The food is the form 1
The mind of layman is like (+)1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 or (-)1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 [depending on the mativation, egoistic creative/destructive motivation is +/-1, altruistic creative/destructive motivation is +/-9], he identify himself with the form, he dont know his true nature of 0 (zero), so he is just 1-9, and he multiply all form by his mind 1-9, actualy a food
The Ariya is like 10, he have 0 of clear mind but 1-9 of form (body) that still here, so he is like 10-90.

When a layman-9 offer food-1 to sotapanna-10, he offer his 1x9 of food to 1 of body's sotapanna , but sotapanna have his realisation of 0, and so, by offering a food to sotapanna's body, lay man obtain 1x9x10 of merit, and not 1x9x1 if this offering is made to an animal for example.

So his food 1 will be multiplyed by 90, and will be returned to him like 90

Of corse is not exactly like that, but the mechanism is here.



A Heart Released
The Teachings of Phra Ajaan Mun Bhuridatta Thera
§15. The nine abodes of living beings.

The realms of the heavenly beings, the human realm, and the realms of destitution (apaya) are classed as the sensual realm, the abode of living beings who indulge in sensuality. Taken together, they count as one. The realms of form, the abodes of living beings who have attained rupa jhana, are four. The realms of formlessness, the abodes of living beings who have attained arupa jhana, are also four. So altogether there are nine abodes for living beings. Those — the arahants — who are wise to the nine abodes leave them and don't have to live in any of them. This appears in the last of the Novice's Questions (samanera-panha), 'dasa nama kim' — What is ten? — which is answered. 'dasahangehi samaññagato arahati vuccati ti' — The arahant, one who is endowed with ten qualities, gains release from the nine abodes of living beings. This can be compared to writing the numerals 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10. 1 to 9 are numbers that can be counted, named, added, subtracted, multiplied, and divided. As for ten — 1 and 0 (zero) — when we erase the 1, because it's a repetition, we are left with 0 (zero). If we use 0 to add, subtract, multiply, or divide with any other number, it won't increase the value of that number; and 0 by itself has no value at all — but you can't say that it doesn't exist, because there it is. The same is true with the heart: It's a nature whose attributes are like 0. When 0 is connected to any other number, it greatly increases the value of that number. For instance, 1 connected with 0 becomes 10. So it is with the heart. When connected with anything, it instantly proliferates into things elaborate and fantastic. But when trained until it is wise and discerning with regard to all knowable phenomena, it returns to its state as 0 (zero) — empty, open, and clear, beyond all counting and naming. It doesn't stay in the nine places that are abodes for living beings. Instead, it stays in a place devoid of supposing and formulation: its inherent nature as 0 (zero), or activityless-ness, as mentioned in § 14.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eased.html
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...

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Hanzze
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby Hanzze » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:49 am

Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Parth
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby Parth » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:04 pm

Dear Hanzze,

Did not quite understand the meaning of your last sentence :"of course .......... Very teaching".

Also please understand the point here is not what somebody is doing for increasing his merit. The relatives may not even know if a person is a sotapanna and only out of genuine love, affection given to a son / daughter / relative or friend may be offering the gifts / food / clothing etc without any intention of increasing one's merits. However will these actions having been done with great love from say a father to son / daughter and the son / daughter being a rare virtuous person not lead to extraordinary merit for the father / mother / other friends or relatives.

Metta

Parth

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Hanzze
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Re: Having a relative/ friend who is Sotapanna

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:42 am

Dear Parth,

one aspect of meritiouse Dana is that it might be given to somebody who does not produce further kamma. That would not have "direct" effects for somebody who does unintentional so. The other aspect is that one is training in letting go. Letting go of ones possession will have direct impact on one self by doing so. If one is practising letting go, and unintentional supportes unvirtuose persons, it might lead to the produce of furthrt kamma. That would have "indirect" effects for somebody who does this unintentional.

Unintentional mostly means, not knowing, being not aware, and we know that moha has also its impacts. General there is nothing like accidently merits. Also love is mostly not a resource for gooing real good deeds. Love might be able to work till a point where giving and taking might find a balance, if love is generated in direction of all beings.

Maybe a parable might help: Supposed one loves a person (the Buddha for example) but does not know what he is about. He identifies him self with that person, projects him self in this person. His love, services and support would have nothing but selfish intentions (ragga character, which is very similar to the saddha character) and even he would love and act for the most holly "being" he would not gain any merits from it. Why is that so? Because his thoughts (view) is not right and out of the wrong view, his intentions are wrong. He/she acts out of moha or in that case it might be lobha (greed/love).

How ever, there are things every person and being is worthy to get: food, clothing, housing and medicin. One can not fail in sharing if needed by someone and one has a possibility to share (Attation: taking additional to share has no good effects).

A child is somebody who normaly learns, learing and study, even if it is not directly Dhamma but "just" general knowledge falls under the ten punna kiriyavatthu (meritious actions). So in supporting a child in the therms of needed (!!) so that it might continue his mertious deeds, is in any way from good effects (even it might be not form the best effect for the supporter, if his views, thoughts are selfish directed -> "May my child grow to a successfull person so that it will support me when I am old...").

How ever, it is always good and importand to look at ones own intentions what ever action is supported and let step by step go of our most misunderstood interpretations of what is good and what is not good. Intentions is kamma. The lesser self/other is involved, the better will be the effect. For all, even if not understood.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_


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