Theravada attainment

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Theravada attainment

Postby Righteous path » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:40 pm

In theravada what are thehighest form of attainments? And how do you reach these?
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Re: Theravada attainment

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:28 pm

The highest form of attainment is that of an arahant - a being who is free from greed, hatred, and delusion.

You can reach this by following the Noble Eightfold Path - Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Concentration, and Right Mindfulness.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Theravada attainment

Postby TravisGM » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:51 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:The highest form of attainment is that of an arahant - a being who is free from greed, hatred, and delusion.

You can reach this by following the Noble Eightfold Path - Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Concentration, and Right Mindfulness.


According to scripture...

Id like to meet someone who has...

Thanks for the info LonesomeYogurt :)
To be happy...
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Re: Theravada attainment

Postby cooran » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:24 am

This might be of interest,also:

Qualities of Ariya Persons
http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/ariyas4.htm

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Theravada attainment

Postby matais » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:16 pm

TravisGM wrote:
LonesomeYogurt wrote:The highest form of attainment is that of an arahant - a being who is free from greed, hatred, and delusion.

You can reach this by following the Noble Eightfold Path - Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Concentration, and Right Mindfulness.


According to scripture...

Id like to meet someone who has...

Suppose you met an Arahant, How would you recognize them as such? If they say 'I am an Arahant', how can you be sure?
Even someone who seems to be free from greed, hatred and delusion might only seem to be so cause their conditions make it easy. For example, see MN21 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html): In this sutta, Vedehika's good conduct is dependent entirely on the good work of her slave Kali. As long as Kali does her job well, Vedehika will show good, praiseworthy conduct. But when Kali ceases to do so, Vedehika's anger quickly surfaces.
So whether or not someone is truly an Arahant cannot be known through normal methods (though the Buddha knew, announcing it frequently upon the death of a disciple). To those that have not yet attained stream entry, even the possibility of Arahantship is a matter of faith.
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Re: Theravada attainment

Postby TravisGM » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:25 pm

matais wrote:
TravisGM wrote:
LonesomeYogurt wrote:The highest form of attainment is that of an arahant - a being who is free from greed, hatred, and delusion.

You can reach this by following the Noble Eightfold Path - Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Concentration, and Right Mindfulness.


According to scripture...

Id like to meet someone who has...

Suppose you met an Arahant, How would you recognize them as such? If they say 'I am an Arahant', how can you be sure?
Even someone who seems to be free from greed, hatred and delusion might only seem to be so cause their conditions make it easy. For example, see MN21 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html): In this sutta, Vedehika's good conduct is dependent entirely on the good work of her slave Kali. As long as Kali does her job well, Vedehika will show good, praiseworthy conduct. But when Kali ceases to do so, Vedehika's anger quickly surfaces.
So whether or not someone is truly an Arahant cannot be known through normal methods (though the Buddha knew, announcing it frequently upon the death of a disciple). To those that have not yet attained stream entry, even the possibility of Arahantship is a matter of faith.


That's a problem I feel Buddhism has. Buddha talks about how if t doesn't make sense to you don't believe it. Faith makes no sense to me, so should I believe arahats dot exist? I'd like to meet one to confirm that Buddha was in fact teaching thr right path to happiness.
To be happy...
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Re: Theravada attainment

Postby Sam Vara » Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:21 pm

To those that have not yet attained stream entry, even the possibility of Arahantship is a matter of faith.


Hi matais,

I agree with your point so far as one's own chances of achieving Arahantship is this lifetime are concerned. But I am more optimistic about the possibility in general. Once we begin to see that Greed, Hatred, and Delusion are not what we are, it requires an act of metaphysical faith to say that beings will always and forever be conjoined to those qualities. Much more logical and easy to believe that beings can give up the taints, than there should be some inexplicable reason why they should not be able to. In this way, faith fulfills itself and develops.
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Re: Theravada attainment

Postby matais » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:35 pm

TravisGM wrote:That's a problem I feel Buddhism has. Buddha talks about how if t doesn't make sense to you don't believe it. Faith makes no sense to me, so should I believe arahats dot exist? I'd like to meet one to confirm that Buddha was in fact teaching thr right path to happiness.

Faith is a normal part of the Buddhist path. As much as any sutta might make sense on an intellectual level, this is not the same as insight, which is seeing a truth for yourself, seeing that it truly can't be any other way. Until such insight arises, even those teachings that make sense are a matter of faith. An informed faith, but faith nevertheless.
Consider this: suppose you met an Arahant, suppose that somehow you could have direct knowledge of their attainment, even this knowledge does not give you direct knowledge of the path and your ability to follow it. These matters remain faith until such direct knowledge arises at stream-entry. Of course, seeing an Arahant could increase your faith in the path, and it would be beneficial to meet one, but don't expect the impossible. Not even an Arahant can grant you direct knowledge, it is something you have to realize for yourself.
Personally, I consider the issue of attainment like this: Whether or not Arahants truly exist in this world is not very important to me. Far more important is having faith in the path and my ability to follow it. Having seen for myself that following the Noble Eightfold Ppath has reduced suffering, I trust that continuing to follow this path will continue to reduce suffering, until at some point there is none left. Seeing my continued progress on the path builds up my faith in the goal, Nibbana.

Sam Vega wrote:
To those that have not yet attained stream entry, even the possibility of Arahantship is a matter of faith.


Hi matais,

I agree with your point so far as one's own chances of achieving Arahantship is this lifetime are concerned. But I am more optimistic about the possibility in general. Once we begin to see that Greed, Hatred, and Delusion are not what we are, it requires an act of metaphysical faith to say that beings will always and forever be conjoined to those qualities. Much more logical and easy to believe that beings can give up the taints, than there should be some inexplicable reason why they should not be able to. In this way, faith fulfills itself and develops.

I did not mean to imply that Arahantship might not be possible, or that we shouldn't believe in the possibility, this lifetime or otherwise. What I meant to say was that without the direct knowledge of the path that arises at stream-entry, the matter of whether or not the state of Arahantship is possible ultimately rests on faith. I also meant to imply that this is not a bad thing. As I wrote above, I consider faith to be essential on the path, at least until stream-entry. Since direct knowledge about the path and the goal are impossible before stream-entry, it is folly to try and attain this direct knowledge anyway. No matter how much we read about the subject, no matter how many Arahants we meet, faith remains a required part of the path. Therefore, we shouldn't avoid faith, but develop it and use it.

All the best,
Matais
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Re: Theravada attainment

Postby Gaoxing » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:59 am

That's a problem I feel Buddhism has. Buddha talks about how if t doesn't make sense to you don't believe it. Faith makes no sense to me, so should I believe arahats dot exist? I'd like to meet one to confirm that Buddha was in fact teaching thr right path to happiness.
May I please ask a question for clarrification purposes?

I would like to know how meeting an Arahant will convince you of the truth? Are you going to believe him? I mean have faith then or by what means do you hope to be convinced?
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Re: Theravada attainment

Postby equilibrium » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:16 pm

One does not "know" the result before walking the path.....It is faith alone that one is on the path.
If one knew the results of the path, one would not be required to walk the path.....as there is no path to be found.

There is a saying: "The truth cannot be told, one needs to see it for themselves"
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Re: Theravada attainment

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:02 pm

TravisGM wrote:That's a problem I feel Buddhism has. Buddha talks about how if t doesn't make sense to you don't believe it. Faith makes no sense to me, so should I believe arahats dot exist? I'd like to meet one to confirm that Buddha was in fact teaching thr right path to happiness.

We can see that following the Buddha's path leads to the reduction of greed, hatred, and delusion in our own lives. If you were sick with some terrible disease, and a reputable doctor prescribed medicine for you, there would be a small amount of faith involved before you took the first dose. But as you took it, and you felt better and better, wouldn't you start to trust the diagnosis more and more? In the same way, I think we can all see that the Buddha's teachings make us more serene, peaceful, and balanced even at the first little steps; why doubt that great things come with great progress if small things come with small progress?

Another way to think about it: if you were climbing a mountain with a map designed by someone who claimed to have reached the top, and you saw that, for the first thousand feet, the map was safe and direct and error-free, then would you assume that it would take a bizarre left turn and actually never reach the summit? Or would you assume that it would maintain the same quality throughout?
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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